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@canefan said in NZ Politics:
@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@dogmeat The unpaid propaganda fluff pieces on Stuff for Ardern has been truly nauseating, and continue to gloss over the fact that in all those years in parliament she lost three races for an electoral seat (Waikato, Auckland Central x2) and then gained the reddest seat that ever redded in Mt. Albert by default in a byelection. She's been leader for five minutes.
Ardern achieved NOTHING as a list MP. Take away an ability to speak well in public, and what do you have?
She is a slick communicator, I'll give her that. But unlike John Key what has she achieved in the private sector or in parliament? What private members bills or other causes has she championed in her 9 years? At least when Key arrived National were a pretty solid opposition and he was the final piece to the puzzle. He showed ability in the debate chamber and had some good stoushes with Helen, so he certainly was no passenger. Labour 2 months ago were a rabble, only one thing has changed and the voters need to wake up and smell the coffee
not really how i see it mate, national have been a rabble in the past too. they had been polling down in the 20s with english as leader and suffered their worst ever result. brash got them pretty close, but still lost. it was the john key vs a long line of unappealing labour leaders dynamic that has had them in such a strong position for so long.
it sickens me that people vote like this, but it is just completely false to pretend that it is only one side who does it. the arrogance of thinking labour voters stupid and national voters intelligent is as sickening. there's stupid everywhere.
by making labour presentable, and positive, and communicating well, all ardern has done is take labour back to where they generally have been in terms of support. most of those returning voters are probably centre-left 'labour voters' by nature, who have returned now that labour are a more credible threat. well done to her i reckon - win or lose, 2 strong parties is far better than one for nz - i believe that no matter which side of the fence you're on. -
@mokey said in NZ Politics:
@canefan Yes. One thing that does piss me off is when Ardern is said to be 'too young'. It's nothing to do with her age, and I wish commentators would shut the fuck up about that. It's about her level of experience at the highest level. Personally, I place a low level of kudos on being a list MP. I want to know an MP has the nous, the knowledge, and the backbone to be elected on merit by constituents. Then I want to see them involved with legislation, with bills, championing causes that will make life better for NZers. Given portfolios to sink their teeth into. Prove they have mettle in the worst of times.
Slick soundbites mean jack shit in terms of successfully running a country.
while i agree with experience vs age etc, i disagree on the electorate mp thing. most voters never meet their mp. labour polling well and ardern's popularity (relative to little's) will have a huge effect on electorate polling for labour candidates, and there are demographic reasons for safe seats etc. sure, there are probably some local candidates who are greatly respected champions of their region, but i reckon they're a minority.
my local candidates i know very little about. in the interests of making an informed decision, i've had a look at their websites: one is basically 'i used to be mayor so you can trust me', and the other has spelling mistakes. i will vote, but i have no good option. one of them will win, and i'm still not going to have any faith whatsoever in their nous, knowledge or backbone.
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Usually avoid these threads like the plague.
I wont be voting for English because "he's a steady hand", "has experience" etc....
I will be voting for the party that most represents the values and direction I want NZ to take.
I'm a very regular fisherman..... as is my wife (it's a great way for us to explore the country together), and as a result have seen the absolutely devastating effect that Dairy Farming is having on our rivers and lakes.... I have personally reported farmers for letting their cattle into rivers and all they seem to get is a warning/ slap on the wrist.
Last year whilst fishing a backcountry river on the West Coast I found a decomposing cow carcass which was still there 2 weeks after I reported it. And the farmer responsible continues to let his stock into the river.
In my opinion National have fucked up massively with regard to this... The 'wadable quality" debacle was an absolute disgrace. Our rivers and lakes are a public resource and preservation of this should take priority in my opinion.
Wish a party would campaign on this issue alone... I'd vote for them in a heartbeat.
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Yeah but its a bit like the fuel pipeline. Rivers didn't just get polluted in the last nine years....
I'm hopeful that if he remains PM we will find out that English is a better PM than Key was. Having spoken 1-1 with both English impressed far more as a Manager while Key had the charisma.
In the main Key was happy to let others do the grunt work but he was very capable of making policy up on the go if he felt the tide of popular opinion. I think English is more likely to go against the flow if he thinks it's for the better in the long run. I also think he cares deeply about the disadvantaged in NZ.
The left doesn't have a monopoly on caring despite the propaganda. I think an English government would really focus on these areas
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@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
Yeah but its a bit like the fuel pipeline. Rivers didn't just get polluted in the last nine years....
I'm hopeful that if he remains PM we will find out that English is a better PM than Key was. Having spoken 1-1 with both English impressed far more as a Manager while Key had the charisma.
There are many examples of rivers and lakes around Canterbury that were swimmable 9 years ago that are most definitely not now.
This has all happened with the rise of intensive dairy farming in the region.
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@sammyc I'm sure you are right - my point is successive governments have done nothing - not that the Nats are squeaky clean. For sure their subsidizing large scale water projects has greatly contributed to the issue
But territorial authorities are also to blame
Rural NZ in my limited experience is used as a tip by all manner of people and organisations and has been for over a century.
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@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc i agree sammy. dairy, tourism and immigration are probably the three things that have given our economy the boost that all this 'steady hand' stuff is based on.
personally i think they've mismanaged all three.
Can you think of a party that would address it better? What trade-offs would you find acceptable?
Here in Oz, land management is a major issue addressed less by the Greens, than industry bodies working in conjunction with CSIRO and land owners. Unfortunately the Nationals (who should be the natural party of the environment here) are being dragged by their constituencies rather than leading.
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@sammyc said in NZ Politics:
There are many examples of rivers and lakes around Canterbury that were swimmable 9 years ago that are most definitely not now.
This has all happened with the rise of intensive dairy farming in the region.
Anyone on TSF a farmer and can give us an idea on what has been going on from the other point of view?
My brother is a dairy farmer in Taranaki and is sick to death of being branded as some sort of toxic crusader. Says they have spent a fortune over the last 20 years in achieving a really high environmental standard and that Taranaki waters are generally some of the most clean. I have no doubt this is helped by fairly significant rainfall due to the mountain but from what he says there is a real regional influence where places like Canterbury and the Wairarapa have really lagged behind the times. I'll pick his brains more next time I see him, don't normally find farming talk particularly interesting so haven't got specifics to hand.
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@rembrandt said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc said in NZ Politics:
There are many examples of rivers and lakes around Canterbury that were swimmable 9 years ago that are most definitely not now.
This has all happened with the rise of intensive dairy farming in the region.
Anyone on TSF a farmer and can give us an idea on what has been going on from the other point of view?
My brother is a dairy farmer in Taranaki and is sick to death of being branded as some sort of toxic crusader. Says they have spent a fortune over the last 20 years in achieving a really high environmental standard and that Taranaki waters are generally some of the most clean. I have no doubt this is helped by fairly significant rainfall due to the mountain but from what he says there is a real regional influence where places like Canterbury and the Wairarapa have really lagged behind the times. I'll pick his brains more next time I see him, don't normally find farming talk particularly interesting so haven't got specifics to hand.
like anything, there are those who are doing their best, those who are at the bare minimum of following the rules, and those who flout them completely.
it's wrong to tar them all with one brush, but the reality is that, taken as a whole, the industry has done massive damage.
too little regulation too late, not well-enforced, and some farmers are recalcitrant. it's important to remember of course that farmers and their families tend to swim in rivers more often than those living in large cities - i reckon most of them care, but most are not water scientists either - regulation is critical. anecdotally the south island is very bad. -
@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc I'm sure you are right - my point is successive governments have done nothing - not that the Nats are squeaky clean. For sure their subsidizing large scale water projects has greatly contributed to the issue
But territorial authorities are also to blame
Rural NZ in my limited experience is used as a tip by all manner of people and organisations and has been for over a century.
that's a bit of a cop-out i reckon. there has been a huge increase, and 9 years in government is plenty of time to do something about it. what exactly have the departments in charge of this shit been doing for those 9 years? the disgraceful shifting of the goalposts on 'swimmable' doesn't really count.
a century ago, at the levels of farming then, with the knowledge then... that's not where the blame lies here. -
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc i agree sammy. dairy, tourism and immigration are probably the three things that have given our economy the boost that all this 'steady hand' stuff is based on.
personally i think they've mismanaged all three.
Can you think of a party that would address it better? What trade-offs would you find acceptable?
tricky question, but these are all problems of not enough regulation - so i can tell you that ACT is not the answer.
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I'm not trying to be an apologist for the National Party but I think the issue is far more complex than generally portrayed
Anecdotally the south island is very bad and I don't doubt that it true but I could take you to rivers that a far cleaner than they were when I was a kid in the 60-70's
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@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc i agree sammy. dairy, tourism and immigration are probably the three things that have given our economy the boost that all this 'steady hand' stuff is based on.
personally i think they've mismanaged all three.
Can you think of a party that would address it better? What trade-offs would you find acceptable?
tricky question, but these are all problems of not enough regulation - so i can tell you that ACT is not the answer.
The left wing response to all problems: tax and regulation.
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@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc i agree sammy. dairy, tourism and immigration are probably the three things that have given our economy the boost that all this 'steady hand' stuff is based on.
personally i think they've mismanaged all three.
Can you think of a party that would address it better? What trade-offs would you find acceptable?
tricky question, but these are all problems of not enough regulation - so i can tell you that ACT is not the answer.
The left wing response to all problems: tax and regulation.
now now, there is a place for regulation without being a dirty commie.
do you think the free market should be left to sort out the environment? you think businesses are going to behave responsibly in that area without regulation? you think publicly listed companies, whose directors have a legal obligation to make money for shareholders, are going to spend money on things they don't have to? -
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc I'm sure you are right - my point is successive governments have done nothing - not that the Nats are squeaky clean. For sure their subsidizing large scale water projects has greatly contributed to the issue
But territorial authorities are also to blame
Rural NZ in my limited experience is used as a tip by all manner of people and organisations and has been for over a century.
that's a bit of a cop-out i reckon. there has been a huge increase, and 9 years in government is plenty of time to do something about it. what exactly have the departments in charge of this shit been doing for those 9 years? the disgraceful shifting of the goalposts on 'swimmable' doesn't really count.
a century ago, at the levels of farming then, with the knowledge then... that's not where the blame lies here.Dairy conversions have been going on much longer than the last nine years, not only from sheep and beef but also were proposed from forestry some cases (not sure if they went ahead). Which may not have been wise in hindsight, but has been happening longer than under MPI's watch under the current colour of government. Maybe the current government could have moved quicker, but this is not a new thing - I can remember water quality issues with local rivers from MAF testing going back to the 80's.
We are starting to pay the price of longer term practices, especially with nitrogen. We did a school trip in the 90's for geography where the new Rotorua sewage treatment plant was world leading to spray treated runoff into the forests. Twenty years on, and that great idea has itslf now saturated the forest soil and is generating waterway runoff again: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503438&objectid=11059245
Plant vines instead of farming, and then cumulative run-off from copper based sprays becomes the next big issue people raise.
There's all sorts of proposals and ideas to reduce farming, I'd figure that some sort of middle ground and/or scientific solution(s) needs to be found given the amount of exports that directly and indirectly come from the land for NZ.
@Rembrandt's comments are spot on though - some regions have moved much quicker on environmental practices than others...
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So a few comments from a dairy farmer:
*So many variables. Canterbury and Wairarapa are drier soil types. River flow is less so higher chance of pollutants to build up.
In Taranaki however we started a fencing and riparian scheme voluntarily in 1995 - most farmers brought into it and over 97 percent fenced and over 90 ish planted. Canterbury and Wairarapa are further behind.
Stocking rates is also a concern (Cows per hectare) - Taranaki is 2-2.5 cow per hectare and Canterbury is 2.5-3.5. Also Higher input farms in Canterbury and Wairarapa - reliant on brought in feeds etc to maintain higher stock rates. Also depends on where waterways are etc - Most farmland in taranaki is off the mountain shorter stretch then to the sea - less chance of pollutants to build up. Wairarapa is from lake Wairarapa which is fed further up by rivers that have thousands of hectares of farmland and towns cities polluting. Canterbury Has the most pristine water coming from the alps but it meanders slowly so sedimentation happens quicker which will catch nitrates etc. Way more to go into and way more science needed to solve the issues.*
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@rembrandt said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc said in NZ Politics:
Anyone on TSF a farmer and can give us an idea on what has been going on from the other point of view?
PAJ and his cows are over in the Taranaki somewhere that last I heard but he has not been on here for a wee while.
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