Force v Chiefs
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@Chester-Draws said in Force v Chiefs:
Lots of guys who would never have made a World XV don't get treated that way though.
Crotty, for example. Everyone goes on about how dependable and reliable he is, rather than how he's just a placeholder until someone else comes along. Yet he is almost exactly in the Messam category.
This is only very recently. If you go back 12 months that's the exact description people gave to Crotty. Then as 2016 went on Crotty was excellent in black and the narrative changed.
I don't think it's an entirely fair comparison either - Messam has had some bad moments in black (e.g. v France in NZ 09, penalty that cost the game vs the Boks at Ellis Park in 14 etc) whereas Crotty has not put a foot wrong.
Messam has had an up and down career - extremely talented youngster that took a very long time to mature and develop as a player, peaked in 2012-13 with the rise of the Chiefs and with Kaino away and has probably fallen away a tad since those years combined with Kaino returning and then last year the failed return to the 7s kind of messed his year up. Seems to be having a better season this year though.
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@KiwiMurph said in Force v Chiefs:
@Chester-Draws said in Force v Chiefs:
The others have had their detractors, but all of them have had periods when they were generally acknowledged as great players.
For example, I was angry that Dagg kept getting selected when his form was poor year after year, but that was only when his form was poor. I was happy picking him when it was good, and want him to play wing this year.
Messam gets shit even when he's playing well, in a way Dagg never did.
(SBW gets shit all the time, but not because he isn't a good player. It's because he tends to act as if the rest of the world will fit in for him, which makes many people think he is a tool.)
I don't think Messam is comparable to those other players (apart from Toeava) - Julian Savea, Dagg and Nonu at their best were all World XV candidates - Messam at his best was not.
TJP is in a totally different stage of his career where he is still ascending so its a bit wait and see when he ends up. SBW you have mentioned.
Pretty sure I remember Messam making a few World XV teams in 2013.
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@Unco I stand corrected on that however my point is that he's not in the same class as Savea, Dagg and Nonu at their best.
Savea at his peak best left winger in the world, Nonu arguably the ABs greatest 12 ever and Dagg lit up a World Cup, especially the knockout stages. One could argue the best AB 6 performance in 2013 was Luatua stepping in for Messam last minute due to injury at a Bledisloe in Sydney in his 2nd test or something and carving up the Aussies.
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This thread has gotten interesting after akaan's underrating of Messam.
I think Crotty is an apt comparison, like Messam he has a lot of detractors (myself included) but he rose to the challenge last year and showed he was up to the task. Messam was the same, and at Super level he is mostly outstanding and has been for a long time.
Some people just don't like Messam I guess. I remain unconvinced that Thorne was the best 6 in the country when he was playing so I guess some people, akaan included, will never be convinced of Messam's ability.
However, Sanders isn't on the same level and it's easy to see why Messam is chosen over him. Maybe Sanders needs to sign with the Crusaders if he wants more game time.
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@KiwiMurph said in Force v Chiefs:
@Unco I stand corrected on that however my point is that he's not in the same class as Savea, Dagg and Nonu at their best.
Savea at his peak best left winger in the world, Nonu arguably the ABs greatest 12 ever and Dagg lit up a World Cup, especially the knockout stages. One could argue the best AB 6 performance in 2013 was Luatua stepping in for Messam last minute due to injury at a Bledisloe in Sydney in his 2nd test or something and carving up the Aussies.
Sure, no-one said he was in their class but at the same time, he was by far the best 6 in NZ at the time and was very well regarded, yet still got plenty of shit anyway. The closest comparison I've got is probably the first half of Rodders AB career.
As for that last bit, I don't think that performance stacks up that well with Messam's performance off the bench against Ireland.
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@Nepia said in Force v Chiefs:
This thread has gotten interesting after akaan's underrating of Messam.
I think Crotty is an apt comparison, like Messam he has a lot of detractors (myself included) but he rose to the challenge last year and showed he was up to the task. Messam was the same, and at Super level he is mostly outstanding and has been for a long time.
Some people just don't like Messam I guess. I remain unconvinced that Thorne was the best 6 in the country when he was playing so I guess some people, akaan included, will never be convinced of Messam's ability.
However, Sanders isn't on the same level and it's easy to see why Messam is chosen over him. Maybe Sanders needs to sign with the Crusaders if he wants more game time.
Not like you to have a dig at a Crusaders player Neps ...
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@Unco said in Force v Chiefs:
Sure, no-one said he was in their class but at the same time, he was by far the best 6 in NZ at the time and was very well regarded, yet still got plenty of shit anyway.
I think with the 'placeholder' tag Messam was in a unique situation in 2012-13 where he was replacing a guy in Kaino who was at his peak,
not retiring, was touch-and-go the best player in the world at the time and was a possibility to return to NZ.At the same time whilst Messam may have been the best in NZ there wasn't an abundance of great 6s running around NZ at that time. Vito had talent but was more of an 8, Luatua was an emerging rookie in 13 and wasn't around in 12 and there wasnt a whole lot more.
There was probably also a bit of lag/carry over from pre-2012 Messam, a player who got a lot of shit (and a lot of it was probably deserved given his pre-2012 play).
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Probably not fair on Messam but I think the difference between him and Crotty is that he was always perceived as someone that had enormous potential but never made the most of it, particularly in his earlier years where he played quite "loose", whereas Crotty is someone that has made the most of his more limited natural ability so has not attracted the same level of criticism.
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@KiwiMurph said in Force v Chiefs:
Dagg lit up a World Cup, especially the knockout stages
he what? That's not how i remember it. I remember some very good stuff with equal measures of not so good stuff thrown in. He looked like the talented rookie he was. If we had lost that final i personally would have led the lynch mob for not passing on that breakout.
I don't think these are apt comparisons anyway. Savea and Dagg got shit for being awesome, and then very much not awesome. Crotty for not being a standout player until people realised all the right options he took (he's sort of Frank Bunce, a guy who gets better the higher level he plays). Nonu because he took a long time to grow in to his exception physical gifts.
Messam basically got shit because he wasn't 2011 Kaino. But then, has anyone been?
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I've thought Messam got flack because in the mid-2000's he was the player you selected when you wanted not one but two players standing at second-five for Ian Foster's Chiefs.
Messam's improved out of sight since then, but a bit like Nonu for most of his career, initial impressions die hard.
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I think Messam took a lot of shit because he was a Chief too ... If he'd played for the Crusaders, then everybody would have thought he was undoubtedly ready after being part of the structure there. If part of the Blues would have been the next multi talented brown boy who just "needs to be in the AB environment" to iron out his few issues. Canes then a "flair" player who has "x factor" and from the Clan - well ... good southern boy who never takes a backward step.
Reality is that Messam has never let anybody down - you can argue the 2014 match all you want, but that incident was bullshit, and a clear target by a Safa TV producer to get a victory - nothing more.
He's a legendary Chief, the best ambassador for the brand that has been, and he carries huge mana in front of any young player in both an on the field and off the field capacity. At AB level, I never had nerves when he was starting and he always held his own - you want to see leadership in action, you watch him with Cruden for that last kick to win the match vs Ireland in 2013. He was there, he took to ball to give to Cruden, and he stood closer to him than anybody else, so that regardless, he was going to be the first person with him after the kick -hit or miss. Where were all the members of the often-famed AB leadership group at that point?
He deserves every plaudit he gets, and he's an absolute hero to many fans of the latest generation of NZ rugby players. Not saying all criticism of his is underserved, not by a long stretch, nobody is above criticism. But undoubtedly he's up there with Toeava for the most heavily criticised players, and thats just not right.
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@MajorRage Messam was part of the leadership group in 2013 wasn't he?
I don't think you can criticise other players in the group in that situation. No point having the cast of thousands around him during that pressure moment. Messam was his Super captain and probably knew him better than most in the team so he saw it as appropriate.
I'm sure all the other players would've been there to support him had he missed just as they all congratulated him after he slotted it.
Messam has always been one of my favourites since he first started. Early on in the 7s he showed huge promise with the physicality of a loosie and the skills of a back. Really matured his game and turned into a real workhorse akin to what Rodders did.
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@Siam said in Force v Chiefs:
Sat at home watching 3 kiwi teams in a row and by christ it's a sad state of affairs hoping that the frickin force are going to provide a game that's not over by halftime...
#thissuperrugbyproductsucks
Yep, it was funny at first but it's not good for the interest in the game for us to be winning like this all the time.
If the money goes, so will most of our players. We need strong opposition, cutting SA and Oz teams will be a good start to increase the strength of teams. Aussie might need to drop two.
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Barrett shmarrett on ya Crudes
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Couple of minutes behind. What's the deal with Lowe and these bullshit dunk passes?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Been doing that all season, - sometimes they work sometimes not
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@Rancid-Schnitzel poor options. I know we love to push it when we bust them open but jeez sometimes I wish we would just try another phase
