Force v Chiefs
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@akan004 said in Force v Chiefs:
Wonder what Messam offers that Sanders doesn't? Sanders is desperately unlikely to only get one start this year.
Experience, leadership and consistency? I like Sanders but the choice between him and Messam is a no brainer.
@Bovidae Yeah, I know Allardice had his knee injury, I just wasn't sure about Tucker. But now that I think about it, I guess it's the same injury that ruled him out of the NPC last year?
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@akan004 said in Force v Chiefs:
@Nepia Messam hasn't been any good for a couple of years though. And experience doesn't count for much when he's constantly giving away stupid penalties. Sorry, I have never rated him that highly.
Well that shows how little your opinion of him is worth then, huh? He's had a fantastic season so far and those "stupid penalties" seem to happen more often in imaginations than reality.
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Had a quick look on those opta stats in the herald but they don't show penalties conceded.
If you do a comparison of Messam v Sanders then Sanders carrying stats look the better but the key thing as far as the Chiefs are probably concerned is that Messam is a lineout target and passes and offloads far more. For the style they play, this would rank him much higher.
Now if you run a comparison against Kaino you can see why Messam is below him in the pecking order quite easily. -
@Nepia said in Force v Chiefs:
@akan004 said in Force v Chiefs:
Wonder what Messam offers that Sanders doesn't? Sanders is desperately unlikely to only get one start this year.
Are you seriously wondering that?
I can't think of a single AB as successful as Messam has been who gets as much shit as he does. It's quite ridiculous.
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@MN5 said in Force v Chiefs:
@Nepia said in Force v Chiefs:
@akan004 said in Force v Chiefs:
Wonder what Messam offers that Sanders doesn't? Sanders is desperately unlikely to only get one start this year.
Are you seriously wondering that?
I can't think of a single AB as successful as Messam has been who gets as much shit as he does. It's quite ridiculous.
I get your point but.
Julian Savea?
Dagg before last season?
TJP before last season?
Toeava?
Nonu?
SBW? -
@pukunui said in Force v Chiefs:
I get your point but.
Julian Savea?
Dagg before last season?
TJP before last season?
Toeava?
Nonu?
SBW?Toeava is the only one in that lot I would agree with.
The others have had their detractors, but all of them have had periods when they were generally acknowledged as great players.
For example, I was angry that Dagg kept getting selected when his form was poor year after year, but that was only when his form was poor. I was happy picking him when it was good, and want him to play wing this year.
Messam gets shit even when he's playing well, in a way Dagg never did.
(SBW gets shit all the time, but not because he isn't a good player. It's because he tends to act as if the rest of the world will fit in for him, which makes many people think he is a tool.)
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@Chester-Draws said in Force v Chiefs:
@pukunui said in Force v Chiefs:
I get your point but.
Julian Savea?
Dagg before last season?
TJP before last season?
Toeava?
Nonu?
SBW?Toeava is the only one in that lot I would agree with.
The others have had their detractors, but all of them have had periods when they were generally acknowledged as great players.
For example, I was angry that Dagg kept getting selected when his form was poor year after year, but that was only when his form was poor. I was happy picking him when it was good, and want him to play wing this year.
Messam gets shit even when he's playing well, in a way Dagg never did.
(SBW gets shit all the time, but not because he isn't a good player. It's because he tends to act as if the rest of the world will fit in for him, which makes many people think he is a tool.)
Yeah Messam gets the grief as all the above have admittedly but they also get the 'wow he used to be shit but by golly he's good now' posts which Messam doesn't seem to.
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@SammyC said in Force v Chiefs:
Never really noticed the Messam hate, he's one of the more popular Chiefs players down this way
One of my personal favourite AB's in the last 5 years. Never takes a backwards step
That's not a common opinion. He got the "placeholder" tag which allowed the casual observer to overlook his efforts. Then that penalty in South Africa happened, and opinions crystalised.
One of, if not the greatest Chiefs ever, on and off the field
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@Chester-Draws said in Force v Chiefs:
The others have had their detractors, but all of them have had periods when they were generally acknowledged as great players.
For example, I was angry that Dagg kept getting selected when his form was poor year after year, but that was only when his form was poor. I was happy picking him when it was good, and want him to play wing this year.
Messam gets shit even when he's playing well, in a way Dagg never did.
(SBW gets shit all the time, but not because he isn't a good player. It's because he tends to act as if the rest of the world will fit in for him, which makes many people think he is a tool.)
I don't think Messam is comparable to those other players (apart from Toeava) - Julian Savea, Dagg and Nonu at their best were all World XV candidates - Messam at his best was not.
TJP is in a totally different stage of his career where he is still ascending so its a bit wait and see when he ends up. SBW you have mentioned.
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Lots of guys who would never have made a World XV don't get treated that way though.
Crotty, for example. Everyone goes on about how dependable and reliable he is, rather than how he's just a placeholder until someone else comes along. Yet he is almost exactly in the Messam category.
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@Chester-Draws said in Force v Chiefs:
Lots of guys who would never have made a World XV don't get treated that way though.
Crotty, for example. Everyone goes on about how dependable and reliable he is, rather than how he's just a placeholder until someone else comes along. Yet he is almost exactly in the Messam category.
This is only very recently. If you go back 12 months that's the exact description people gave to Crotty. Then as 2016 went on Crotty was excellent in black and the narrative changed.
I don't think it's an entirely fair comparison either - Messam has had some bad moments in black (e.g. v France in NZ 09, penalty that cost the game vs the Boks at Ellis Park in 14 etc) whereas Crotty has not put a foot wrong.
Messam has had an up and down career - extremely talented youngster that took a very long time to mature and develop as a player, peaked in 2012-13 with the rise of the Chiefs and with Kaino away and has probably fallen away a tad since those years combined with Kaino returning and then last year the failed return to the 7s kind of messed his year up. Seems to be having a better season this year though.
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@KiwiMurph said in Force v Chiefs:
@Chester-Draws said in Force v Chiefs:
The others have had their detractors, but all of them have had periods when they were generally acknowledged as great players.
For example, I was angry that Dagg kept getting selected when his form was poor year after year, but that was only when his form was poor. I was happy picking him when it was good, and want him to play wing this year.
Messam gets shit even when he's playing well, in a way Dagg never did.
(SBW gets shit all the time, but not because he isn't a good player. It's because he tends to act as if the rest of the world will fit in for him, which makes many people think he is a tool.)
I don't think Messam is comparable to those other players (apart from Toeava) - Julian Savea, Dagg and Nonu at their best were all World XV candidates - Messam at his best was not.
TJP is in a totally different stage of his career where he is still ascending so its a bit wait and see when he ends up. SBW you have mentioned.
Pretty sure I remember Messam making a few World XV teams in 2013.
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@Unco I stand corrected on that however my point is that he's not in the same class as Savea, Dagg and Nonu at their best.
Savea at his peak best left winger in the world, Nonu arguably the ABs greatest 12 ever and Dagg lit up a World Cup, especially the knockout stages. One could argue the best AB 6 performance in 2013 was Luatua stepping in for Messam last minute due to injury at a Bledisloe in Sydney in his 2nd test or something and carving up the Aussies.
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This thread has gotten interesting after akaan's underrating of Messam.
I think Crotty is an apt comparison, like Messam he has a lot of detractors (myself included) but he rose to the challenge last year and showed he was up to the task. Messam was the same, and at Super level he is mostly outstanding and has been for a long time.
Some people just don't like Messam I guess. I remain unconvinced that Thorne was the best 6 in the country when he was playing so I guess some people, akaan included, will never be convinced of Messam's ability.
However, Sanders isn't on the same level and it's easy to see why Messam is chosen over him. Maybe Sanders needs to sign with the Crusaders if he wants more game time.
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@KiwiMurph said in Force v Chiefs:
@Unco I stand corrected on that however my point is that he's not in the same class as Savea, Dagg and Nonu at their best.
Savea at his peak best left winger in the world, Nonu arguably the ABs greatest 12 ever and Dagg lit up a World Cup, especially the knockout stages. One could argue the best AB 6 performance in 2013 was Luatua stepping in for Messam last minute due to injury at a Bledisloe in Sydney in his 2nd test or something and carving up the Aussies.
Sure, no-one said he was in their class but at the same time, he was by far the best 6 in NZ at the time and was very well regarded, yet still got plenty of shit anyway. The closest comparison I've got is probably the first half of Rodders AB career.
As for that last bit, I don't think that performance stacks up that well with Messam's performance off the bench against Ireland.
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@Nepia said in Force v Chiefs:
This thread has gotten interesting after akaan's underrating of Messam.
I think Crotty is an apt comparison, like Messam he has a lot of detractors (myself included) but he rose to the challenge last year and showed he was up to the task. Messam was the same, and at Super level he is mostly outstanding and has been for a long time.
Some people just don't like Messam I guess. I remain unconvinced that Thorne was the best 6 in the country when he was playing so I guess some people, akaan included, will never be convinced of Messam's ability.
However, Sanders isn't on the same level and it's easy to see why Messam is chosen over him. Maybe Sanders needs to sign with the Crusaders if he wants more game time.
Not like you to have a dig at a Crusaders player Neps ...
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@Unco said in Force v Chiefs:
Sure, no-one said he was in their class but at the same time, he was by far the best 6 in NZ at the time and was very well regarded, yet still got plenty of shit anyway.
I think with the 'placeholder' tag Messam was in a unique situation in 2012-13 where he was replacing a guy in Kaino who was at his peak,
not retiring, was touch-and-go the best player in the world at the time and was a possibility to return to NZ.At the same time whilst Messam may have been the best in NZ there wasn't an abundance of great 6s running around NZ at that time. Vito had talent but was more of an 8, Luatua was an emerging rookie in 13 and wasn't around in 12 and there wasnt a whole lot more.
There was probably also a bit of lag/carry over from pre-2012 Messam, a player who got a lot of shit (and a lot of it was probably deserved given his pre-2012 play).
