AB Blindside - past, present & future
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Beehre is a real workhorse and I'm a fan of his.
I do have sympathy for your idea about having a bigger player at six - a Kaino sized player at least.
The thing about the bigger options you mentioned is that none of them are as big as PsTD. And none of him are close to having the same engine. Probably only Finau is as dynamic too.
When Scott Barrett first started playing Super Rugby he would have been 5kg lighter and he had a lot more pace. IMO he could have been a world class blindside if he was developed there. He's been very good at a lock at times but its tough to say he has been world class.
The thing is Razor played him at lock and apart from maybe 1 or 2 games never seemed to entertain the idea of playing him at blindside. Instead Razor has gone for much smaller, lighter guys who are jack of all trades type guys - at 6. I think the biggest guy he's played at 6 for the Crusaders was probably Cullen Grace? So I'd be surprised if Razor ends up going with a bigger style blindside.
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@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
The thing is Razor played him at lock and apart from maybe 1 or 2 games never seemed to entertain the idea of playing him at blindside. Instead Razor has gone for much smaller, lighter guys who are jack of all trades type guys - at 6. I think the biggest guy he's played at 6 for the Crusaders was probably Cullen Grace? So I'd be surprised if Razor ends up going with a bigger style blindside.
Of course, all of this is just hypothetical. And you make a good point about Razor's previous selection tendencies.
For what it's worth - I don't think coaching selection is ever set in stone, but let's set that aside for now - Razor did select bigger blindsides once, as head coach of the NZ U20s in 2015 and '16. He picked guys like Mitchell Dunshea (SR lock), James Blackwell (SR lock), and Fin Hoeata (NPC lock) at blindside for certain games during those tournaments, so I guess there's some precedent. Not a lot, though.
But we'll see what they'll do soon enough. Let's just say, I won't be particularly shocked if he picks Blackadder as his blindside against France.
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@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
won't be particularly shocked if he picks Blackadder as his blindside against France.
Will reinforce my view that AB coaches should be able to read , at the very least.
That would be a pathetic parochial selection.
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Yeah I was going to mention the last time he played bigger blindsides was in that u20 team. But he also picked a bigger 8 then in Akira and he's also gone with smaller 8's since then too.
Razor loves the high workrate, highly mobile jack of all trades for the last 7 or 8 years.
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@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
In terms of Parker I saw him as a potential AB last year however I do think that if Blackadder is fit he is likely to be in the squad as the starting 6 with Savea at 7 and Sititi at 8. Jason Ryan loves him some Blackadder and I can't see him looking past him. Personally I'd like to see someone like Parker in the squad over Blackadder but I'll be shocked if it happens.
Haig hasn't had a lot of game time this year. I do think there is a place for Finau and Parker in the squad.
I don't see Razor and co going for a tight 6 under their game plan. They picked Blackadder, Finau, and Sititi as starters last year. They're looking for mobile guys.
In terms of workrate Finau, Parker and Haig are very much alike compared to Blackadder. Finau is highly effective at attacking rucks and Parker in defensive rucks. With regards to Blackadder the coaches seem to be more interested in volume as opposed to actual impact. He's always been a high volume low impact guy.
Contact Involvements per 80 Minutes Loose Forwards ( Carries + Tackles + Rucks )
69.25 Ethan Blackadder
61.62 Corey Kellow
61.0 Tom Christie
58.87 Dalton Papali'i
58.51 Du'Plessis Kirifi
58.41 Sean Withy
56.02 Jahrome Brown
54.84 Peter Lakai
53.63 Ardie Savea
52.35 Vaiolini Ekuasi
52.17 Luke Jacobson
50.6 Cullen Grace
48.87 Christian Lio-Willie
48.33 Brayden Iose
47.89 Kaylum Boshier
47.36 Hugh Renton
45.14 Hoskins Sotutu
44.21 Simon Parker
42.27 Oliver Haig
39.32 Samipeni FinauTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Rucks Per 80 minutes
35.24 Dalton Papali'i
35.19 Ethan Blackadder
33.57 Sean Withy
31.78 Corey Kellow
31.4 Du'Plessis Kirifi
29.68 Tom Christie
29.13 Jahrome Brown
27.87 Ardie Savea
26.91 Luke Jacobson
25.77 Peter Lakai
25.44 Kaylum Boshier
23.85 Cullen Grace
23.35 Simon Parker
22.39 Vaiolini Ekuasi
21.74 Oliver Haig
20.72 Christian Lio-Willie
20.28 Samipeni Finau
20.0 Brayden Iose
19.95 Hoskins Sotutu
16.75 Hugh RentonTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Attacking Ruck Effectiveness
91.8% Samipeni Finau
91.3% Tom Christie
90.2% Dalton Papali'i
90.2% Vaiolini Ekuasi
88.1% Ardie Savea
87.8% Peter Lakai
87.6% Jahrome Brown
86.9% Christian Lio-Willie
85.9% Hoskins Sotutu
85.9% Du'Plessis Kirifi
85.2% Brayden Iose
85.1% Luke Jacobson
85.0% Sean Withy
84.5% Corey Kellow
84.5% Oliver Haig
83.1% Simon Parker
82.6% Hugh Renton
81.9% Cullen Grace
81.5% Ethan Blackadder
77.3% Kaylum BoshierTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Defensive Ruck Effectiveness
29.6% Simon Parker
23.9% Luke Jacobson
23.1% Kaylum Boshier
22.4% Du'Plessis Kirifi
21.9% Samipeni Finau
20.1% Ardie Savea
17.6% Cullen Grace
17.3% Dalton Papali'i
16.1% Tom Christie
15.2% Jahrome Brown
14.8% Christian Lio-Willie
14.7% Sean Withy
13.1% Peter Lakai
12.1% Hoskins Sotutu
12.0% Corey Kellow
11.8% Vaiolini Ekuasi
9.1% Brayden Iose
8.3% Hugh Renton
7.4% Ethan Blackadder
0.0% Oliver HaigTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Dominant Tackle %
16.5% Simon Parker
11.5% Samipeni Finau
8.0% Hugh Renton
7.9% Ardie Savea
7.1% Brayden Iose
6.2% Christian Lio-Willie
6.0% Ethan Blackadder
5.8% Hoskins Sotutu
5.5% Peter Lakai
5.3% Sean Withy
4.4% Kaylum Boshier
4.4% Corey Kellow
4.3% Du'Plessis Kirifi
4.2% Luke Jacobson
3.5% Jahrome Brown
3.4% Cullen Grace
3.3% Tom Christie
3.3% Dalton Papali'i
2.0% Oliver Haig
0.0% Vaiolini EkuasiStats from Opta theanalyst.
I agree no way are they not picking Ethan Blackadder as their starting 6 right through to the 2027 RWC in combo with 8. Sititi and 7, Savea. For this reason I would like to see Naitoa Ah Kuoi selected in the squad to be developed as the bench blindsie/lock cover.
I like his combination with Tupou Vaai who is now one of the first names on the sheet. Developing him as a bench option will put him him prime position to be a straight swap for Blackadder at 6 when Ethan is on one of his inevitably injury breaks without bringing in someone cold who will be cast aside as soon as Blackadder makes a recovery.
For me Fabian Holland is being over hyped. If he is such a good tight forward why are the Highlanders always getting spanked in this area game after game. i would rank a uninjured Sam Darry ahead of him. IMO Ah Kuoi should be selected as the 4th lock to be developed as the bench lock/blindside cover. If Holland is selected it should be at the expense of Patrick Tuipulotu
Locks: S Barret, T Vaai, P Tuipulotu, N Ah Kuoi
Loosies A Savea, K Du Plessis, E Blackadder, S Parker, W Sititi, H Sotutu -
@tubbyj said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
In terms of Parker I saw him as a potential AB last year however I do think that if Blackadder is fit he is likely to be in the squad as the starting 6 with Savea at 7 and Sititi at 8. Jason Ryan loves him some Blackadder and I can't see him looking past him. Personally I'd like to see someone like Parker in the squad over Blackadder but I'll be shocked if it happens.
Haig hasn't had a lot of game time this year. I do think there is a place for Finau and Parker in the squad.
I don't see Razor and co going for a tight 6 under their game plan. They picked Blackadder, Finau, and Sititi as starters last year. They're looking for mobile guys.
In terms of workrate Finau, Parker and Haig are very much alike compared to Blackadder. Finau is highly effective at attacking rucks and Parker in defensive rucks. With regards to Blackadder the coaches seem to be more interested in volume as opposed to actual impact. He's always been a high volume low impact guy.
Contact Involvements per 80 Minutes Loose Forwards ( Carries + Tackles + Rucks )
69.25 Ethan Blackadder
61.62 Corey Kellow
61.0 Tom Christie
58.87 Dalton Papali'i
58.51 Du'Plessis Kirifi
58.41 Sean Withy
56.02 Jahrome Brown
54.84 Peter Lakai
53.63 Ardie Savea
52.35 Vaiolini Ekuasi
52.17 Luke Jacobson
50.6 Cullen Grace
48.87 Christian Lio-Willie
48.33 Brayden Iose
47.89 Kaylum Boshier
47.36 Hugh Renton
45.14 Hoskins Sotutu
44.21 Simon Parker
42.27 Oliver Haig
39.32 Samipeni FinauTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Rucks Per 80 minutes
35.24 Dalton Papali'i
35.19 Ethan Blackadder
33.57 Sean Withy
31.78 Corey Kellow
31.4 Du'Plessis Kirifi
29.68 Tom Christie
29.13 Jahrome Brown
27.87 Ardie Savea
26.91 Luke Jacobson
25.77 Peter Lakai
25.44 Kaylum Boshier
23.85 Cullen Grace
23.35 Simon Parker
22.39 Vaiolini Ekuasi
21.74 Oliver Haig
20.72 Christian Lio-Willie
20.28 Samipeni Finau
20.0 Brayden Iose
19.95 Hoskins Sotutu
16.75 Hugh RentonTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Attacking Ruck Effectiveness
91.8% Samipeni Finau
91.3% Tom Christie
90.2% Dalton Papali'i
90.2% Vaiolini Ekuasi
88.1% Ardie Savea
87.8% Peter Lakai
87.6% Jahrome Brown
86.9% Christian Lio-Willie
85.9% Hoskins Sotutu
85.9% Du'Plessis Kirifi
85.2% Brayden Iose
85.1% Luke Jacobson
85.0% Sean Withy
84.5% Corey Kellow
84.5% Oliver Haig
83.1% Simon Parker
82.6% Hugh Renton
81.9% Cullen Grace
81.5% Ethan Blackadder
77.3% Kaylum BoshierTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Defensive Ruck Effectiveness
29.6% Simon Parker
23.9% Luke Jacobson
23.1% Kaylum Boshier
22.4% Du'Plessis Kirifi
21.9% Samipeni Finau
20.1% Ardie Savea
17.6% Cullen Grace
17.3% Dalton Papali'i
16.1% Tom Christie
15.2% Jahrome Brown
14.8% Christian Lio-Willie
14.7% Sean Withy
13.1% Peter Lakai
12.1% Hoskins Sotutu
12.0% Corey Kellow
11.8% Vaiolini Ekuasi
9.1% Brayden Iose
8.3% Hugh Renton
7.4% Ethan Blackadder
0.0% Oliver HaigTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Dominant Tackle %
16.5% Simon Parker
11.5% Samipeni Finau
8.0% Hugh Renton
7.9% Ardie Savea
7.1% Brayden Iose
6.2% Christian Lio-Willie
6.0% Ethan Blackadder
5.8% Hoskins Sotutu
5.5% Peter Lakai
5.3% Sean Withy
4.4% Kaylum Boshier
4.4% Corey Kellow
4.3% Du'Plessis Kirifi
4.2% Luke Jacobson
3.5% Jahrome Brown
3.4% Cullen Grace
3.3% Tom Christie
3.3% Dalton Papali'i
2.0% Oliver Haig
0.0% Vaiolini EkuasiStats from Opta theanalyst.
I agree no way are they not picking Ethan Blackadder as their starting 6 right through to the 2027 RWC in combo with 8. Sititi and 7, Savea. For this reason I would like to see Naitoa Ah Kuoi selected in the squad to be developed as the bench blindsie/lock cover.
I like his combination with Tupou Vaai who is now one of the first names on the sheet. Developing him as a bench option will put him him prime position to be a straight swap for Blackadder at 6 when Ethan is on one of his inevitably injury breaks without bringing in someone cold who will be cast aside as soon as Blackadder makes a recovery.
For me Fabian Holland is being over hyped. If he is such a good tight forward why are the Highlanders always getting spanked in this area game after game. i would rank a uninjured Sam Darry ahead of him. IMO Ah Kuoi should be selected as the 4th lock to be developed as the bench lock/blindside cover. If Holland is selected it should be at the expense of Patrick Tuipulotu
Locks: S Barret, T Vaai, P Tuipulotu, N Ah Kuoi
Loosies A Savea, K Du Plessis, E Blackadder, S Parker, W Sititi, H SotutuI like Ah Kuoi. However the Chiefs lineout when Taukei'aho, Vaa'i, Parker and Finau were on last night was pretty shocking at times so there's that.
Also the Canes were bullied badly at the breakdown last night and Kirifi + Lakai couldn't counter it.
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@tubbyj said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I agree no way are they not picking Ethan Blackadder as their starting 6 right through to the 2027 RWC in combo with 8. Sititi and 7, Savea. For this reason I would like to see Naitoa Ah Kuoi selected in the squad to be developed as the bench blindsie/lock cover.
Total and utter conjecture.
Where do you get all the certainty from? -
@Nepia said in QF Chiefs v Blues:
@brodean said in QF Chiefs v Blues:
I remember Shannon Frizell in early parts of his career making 20 tackles when the AB's lost
Which matches are you referring to?
His earlier tests in 2018 I remember he used to soak up the tackles and not in a good way. A 6 making 20 odd tackles round the bootlaces, not really what I would call effective work.
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@Nepia said in QF Chiefs v Blues:
@brodean said in QF Chiefs v Blues:
I remember Shannon Frizell in early parts of his career making 20 tackles when the AB's lost
Which matches are you referring to?
Have to be Argentina in 2020.
We only ever lost three games when Shannon started and one of those was his last match.
To be fair, Shannon was already three years into his AB career when he sustained his first loss.
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@Nepia said in QF Chiefs v Blues:
@brodean said in QF Chiefs v Blues:
I remember Shannon Frizell in early parts of his career making 20 tackles when the AB's lost
Which matches are you referring to?
It would have to be very early and seems correct.
I think I wrote something about his play in an article here quite some time ago and I was quite positive. One point that may sway the stats is that during those early games we really played without the ball a lot in the games in which he played.
in 2018, for the games I can find stats for:
Sept 8, Argentina he had 18 tackles, 2 missed (2nd in the team, Ardie had 21 and the Pumas had 56% possession)
Sept 30, Argentina he had 12 tackles, 0 missed (equal 2nd in the team, and the Pumas had 53% possession)
Oct 6, Sth Africa he had 19 tackles, 1 missed (1st in the team, and the Saffas had 59% possession)
To compare against another game that season, Squire's 7 tackles with no misses against Sth Africa when we lost that season looks really bad, but we had 75% of the possession.
It certainly was not the player he became later.
Rugby pass has stats by competition going back three years (I couldn't be bothered trawling ESPN):
RWC 2023
5 matches
40 tackles (Ave.
Tackle per minute .14Rugby championship 2023
3 matches
32 tackles (Ave. 11)
Tackles per minute .16Rugby championship 2022
4 matches
20 tackles (Ave. 5)
Tackles per minute .09 -
@Chris-B said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Nepia said in QF Chiefs v Blues:
@brodean said in QF Chiefs v Blues:
I remember Shannon Frizell in early parts of his career making 20 tackles when the AB's lost
Which matches are you referring to?
Have to be Argentina in 2020.
We only ever lost three games when Shannon started and one of those was his last match.
To be fair, Shannon was already three years into his AB career when he sustained his first loss.
He made 4 tackles and missed 1, not the 20+ the poster was claiming. In those 3 starting matches you mention he made a total of 10 tackles and 3 misses and 2 yellow cards. I think it;'s fair to blame all 3 losses on your missus.
And the early matches that @gt12 discussed (where he got near 20 twice) we won all those matches, where they poster was claiming they were losses (IIRC he was using that to attack Sititi).
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@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
So I was rewatching the Chiefs-Blues game and Beehre had an impressive cameo. Not just the massive try at the death but his carrying and cleaning was really good as well. He has nimble feet and seems, to me, to be really mobile around the field.
Beehre showing nice footwork at the line before going more direct for his score at the end
Looking at his season’s stats before the Chiefs game – 9.7 carries/80, 18 attacking rucks/80 at 82.5%, 16 tackles/80 at 95%, 5.7 defensive rucks hit/80 (Opta); 178 post-contact metres, 11 defenders beaten, 3 line-breaks, 2 tries across the season (RugbyPass) – he seems to get through a decent amount of work in an effective manner.
He also seems to have a bit of a niggly edge about him and thrives in the close quarters. So a bit of an enforcer with a solid lineout game, dynamic mobility and a high volume of defensive involvements.
Perhaps this is a bit of a strange one but: Beehre as a bolter for the blindside position?
I think it could work at Test level (I’d keep him at lock for Super Rugby). If the selectors do go in the direction of a bigger body at blindside, I think he could be an intriguing option.
He’s got a rangy style that reminded me a little of Jono Gibbes and Angus MacDonald. So a bit of a lock/blindside hybrid. Certainly has looked the part this season.
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@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@zedsdeadbaby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
NZ Rugby currently having trouble finding big bodies - we don’t produce big bodies as a nation naturally and a lot are going to basketball.
It's something that's really noticeable at age grade level as well, for example when playing Australia. They seemingly have this endless pipeline of tall, athletic players in both the backs and forwards, despite the presence of basketball and AFL.
It makes it extra tough when players like Akira Ieremia - a big body with good coordination - leave early to places like Japan.
Funnily enough here in Melbourne, in afl , there are complaints they lose lots of tall athletes to basketball as kids, who never go back . The theory is as kids they feel quite Unco and struggle to get involved and feel valuable in football , the smaller fast kids are usually the stars at that level , in basketball it comes more natural to them and they instantly feel more valuable , it just feels like a better fit to their body type .
I would imagine a similar thing happens in rugby .
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@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@tubbyj said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I agree no way are they not picking Ethan Blackadder as their starting 6 right through to the 2027 RWC in combo with 8. Sititi and 7, Savea. For this reason I would like to see Naitoa Ah Kuoi selected in the squad to be developed as the bench blindsie/lock cover.
Total and utter conjecture.
Where do you get all the certainty from?Two factors:
- Rozor has a four year contract.
- His unmerited inclusion in the squad last year.
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@Mr-Fish said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I cant be bothered checking the team sheets for this, as @Bovidae probably remembers off the top of his head. Has Parker started at 7 this year? I wonder if some of his greater involvement per minute just reflects him spending more time playing in the middle at 7 (arguably a great thing that he has this versatility).
Not this year.
He had a few games at 7 last season but he's been exclusively used at 6 and 8 in 2023.
The game against the Reds in Brisbane being one. Exactly the wrong conditions for Parker having to play at 7, as a big but not as mobile loose forward.
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@ACT-Crusader said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
So I was rewatching the Chiefs-Blues game and Beehre had an impressive cameo. Not just the massive try at the death but his carrying and cleaning was really good as well. He has nimble feet and seems, to me, to be really mobile around the field.
Beehre showing nice footwork at the line before going more direct for his score at the end
Looking at his season’s stats before the Chiefs game – 9.7 carries/80, 18 attacking rucks/80 at 82.5%, 16 tackles/80 at 95%, 5.7 defensive rucks hit/80 (Opta); 178 post-contact metres, 11 defenders beaten, 3 line-breaks, 2 tries across the season (RugbyPass) – he seems to get through a decent amount of work in an effective manner.
He also seems to have a bit of a niggly edge about him and thrives in the close quarters. So a bit of an enforcer with a solid lineout game, dynamic mobility and a high volume of defensive involvements.
Perhaps this is a bit of a strange one but: Beehre as a bolter for the blindside position?
I think it could work at Test level (I’d keep him at lock for Super Rugby). If the selectors do go in the direction of a bigger body at blindside, I think he could be an intriguing option.
He’s got a rangy style that reminded me a little of Jono Gibbes and Angus MacDonald. So a bit of a lock/blindside hybrid. Certainly has looked the part this season.
Shades of Troy Flavell too ? A guy like him with discipline would be invaluable.
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Quite a different player to Flavell. I think Beehre is a genuine blindside option whereas I thought Flavell looked out of place there and it wasn’t until he came back into the side pre-RWC 2007 that I thought he looked most comfortable and played his best footy and that was at lock.
