The Silver Fern

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="588355" data-time="1465996228">
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Since the 2011 U20 WC - which includes Wales' victory against NZ at the 2012 U-20 World Cup group stage - the following Welsh players have advanced to the national squad:
 
BACKS 
Liam Williams, Tom Prydie, Matthew Morgan, Hallam Amos, Eli Walker, Owen Williams, Cory Allen, Tyler Morgan, Gareth Anscombe (played for NZ U20s)
 
FORWARDS 
Rhodri Jones, Rob Evans, Samson Lee, Ellis Jenkins, Dan Baker, Ross Moriarty (played for England U20s) 
In contrast NZ have selected the following just from 2011: 
Beauden Barrett, Waisake Naholo, Lima Sopoaga, Charles Piutau, TJ Perenara 
Ben Tameifuna, Steven Luatua, Brodie Retallick, Same Cane 
The big problem is the majority of the Welsh U20 players don't play in the big matches - European rugby - often enough and when they do get selected to the national side rarely get on - because we're rarely in a comfortable enough position to bring them on. 
Unlike NZ for example who have Cane as GOAT's 'immediate' replacement with 30+ caps. 
Better structure, development, coaching and nurturing in NZ.
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The 2011 u20 vintage from both England and New Zealand (the two finalists) was fantastic though. They already make up the spine of the England team and now look likely to do the same with the All Blacks. Wales just didn't have the same quality at the same time. Wait for the 2013 guys to come through (they're only just doing in England and New Zealand) and Wales should have some promising players.

SimonAdd

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mick Gold Coast QLD" data-cid="588100" data-time="1465947317">
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These blokes share the background of a demanding apprenticeship and long career with the dominant Club of the pre-professional period. Randwick was the high seminary of the Club rugby religion, where one learned lifelong lessons that excellence and success are borne of unremitting discipline and application.
 
Eddie (56 years old) played 210 games for Randwick from '81 to '91, then went on with his career as a physical education and geography teacher and eventually school principal. He appeared in six grand finals and won four. His coaching career began in '94 (Randwick) and he has been at it all around the world ever since. He played at Randwick with John Maxwell, Simon Poidevin, Lloyd Walker, Tim Kava, Stu Rutherford, David Knox, early David Campese and the Ellas. I watched him trundle about throughout that period, small and 70 kg wringing wet, an ever present workhorse for the whole of every match, always on the ball, dirty, wearing thick ankle pads.
 
He came under the guidance of the master coach, Bob Dwyer, a tremendously influential figure in the game; and of the excellent Club coaches Jeff Sayle and Alan Gaffney. Cheika spent more time with the latter two.
 
Bob Dwyer said of him some years ago "When Eddie came on the scene at Randwick, he came with a group of talented players (the Ellas and Walker all from Matraville High) into a group of talented players. He had exposure to a superior level of performance. What's come of this is his unbelievable appetite for hard work, much to the consternation of those below him." He was academically outstanding and is well summarised as a perfectionist. From Jones:
 
"Ian Chappell certainly influenced my thinking on sport," Jones wrote. "I have been lucky enough to coach a number of teams. I want the teams that I coach to be tough and uncompromising. I want them to play positive rugby. I want our team to play entertaining rugby that sets standards of play. And I want to make sure that our team and team-members are selfless in pursuit of excellence. These attributes are the attributes of Ian Chappell."
 
Like many of his Club team mates he simultaneously studied and left rugby to go straight into an existing professional career. His father is Australian and his mother Japanese.
 
Greg Growden said of him:
 
"Eddie Jones can be difficult to work with. He is so fastidious, so demanding, so clinical, so deeply focused, so work orientated, he can incinerate those around him, especially if they are a bit sensitive. If you don't stand up to him, he can crush you."
 
From Glen Ella, who worked alongside Jones in Japan:
 
"Iâ€™d think: â€œDoes this guy ever sleep?â€ Weâ€™d go for a coffee for some down-time and heâ€™d start tearing up the sugar sachets to create back-lines."
 
I do believe Eddie over-analysed things as Wallaby coach - Matthew Burke said that in the 1990s "we [the Wallabies] had two set moves we used ... now we walk out of team meetings with pages and pages of moves and tactics and analysis". Australian rugby politics brought him down (a given for every Wallaby coach) together with his personal style, abrasive relationship with ARU power brokers (who all kept their jobs) and poor results from the Wallabies (who all kept their jobs). I read he has learned much and mellowed somewhat in the past fifteen years, but not quite to the alarming "every snowflake is unique and special" level, praise be.
 
He once tore into that outstanding flake, your Kwadie, after a typically dismal effort for the Reds at Suncorp earlier in his career, when he knew only accolades and that no fault ever landed at his door. Robbie Deans did the same some years later after a match against Argentina, but in more moderate "Could have done better" terms. The insolent little turd was so inflated by then that it became the catalyst for his sobbing that "That Dins fella is tocix ... ummm ... togsik ... errr ... what my manager wrote here on this bit of paper" which was the catalyst for that coach being given the shunt.
 
Cheika (49 years old) played in 286 games from '85 to '99, as captain from '97 to '99. The Club won eight premierships during that time. He had played Under 21 for Australia and toured Europe with NSW in '97. The middle years of his career, from '89 to '94, were spent playing in Europe. His coaching career commenced in '99 and he has coached continuously since in Europe, Randwick and at the Waratahs. His contemporaries at Randwick were Warwick Waugh, Phil Kearns, Tim Kelaher, later David Campese and Ewen McKenzie; and the No 8 mantle was passed from John Maxwell, one of the hardest, toughest Club men to play the game. One needed to be seriously good at the job to play in the Randwick forward pack, they were the standard by which others were measured - every man a confident, capable worker, mean, competitive and no bludgers, hunting as a single unit of automatons and, when injured, replaced by a second grader forged from the same steel.
 
Cheika was of the provocative mongrel type, combative, vigorous, able, always gobbing off, pushing the laws and pressing the referee.
 
He enjoyed a blessed family upbringing. His late father had arrived as a typical post war migrant in 1950, dirt poor. His only contact was a Lebanese fruit shop owner, the father of Aussie Home Loans founder John Symond. He ended up with his own trading company working in foreign and Australian goods; an MBE for services to the Lebanese community and Lebanese Australian of the Year.
 
Michael Cheika was driven, ambitious and disciplined enough to forge his own way in the "rag trade" in Europe - and to become fluent in two more languages along the way (now he is studying Portugese, to bring his score to five) - and made his fortune when he sold his fashion distribution company. (Cheika's background, nature, manner and wider family success replicates that of one of my sons in law in building construction, whose family village is the next one along, five miles from Cheika's in the mountains near the Syrian border).
 
The media has been trying hard to talk up something which is unlikely to exist - Jones and Cheika are seven years apart in age, their Club careers overlapped by seven years but Jones was from the old guard. He was from Matraville High, public housing territory, and Cheika from Marcellan (Catholic) College - different cradles - and they lived in different parts of the district, Cheika among his Lebanese family milieu. When they ceased playing they went their quite different, separate ways. I doubt they were close and they certainly don't have any particular rivalry, as claimed by the scribes.
 
I have seen Eddie described as a "larrikin", which he certainly was not, and both as being unlucky to have not played for Australia. The journalists just make stuff up.
 
With Randwick and Bob Dwyer as benefactors they would have played if they were good enough but they were not. There is no shame in that, they attained the highest level of which they were capable. Their experience mirrors that of League's greatest coaches - Warren Ryan, Jack Gibson and Wayne Bennett were competent club footballers who only got a sniff of State representation.
 
I have great respect for both of these fellows, faithful servants to rugby that they are. I believe Michael Cheika will succeed, not least because he put the ARU back in its box (when they needed him more than he needed them) and he enjoys the protection of the most powerful political faction in Sydney rugby. He needs to be around for some years to to do that. Eddie Jones will do well with England however he has seen his best days already and I donâ€™t think his obsessive, demanding methods will sit well with modern player expectations into the future. Cheika is the modern coach.
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I just wanted to say awesome post, the sort of reason this forum is the best rugby one out there. Fantastic from a Northern Hemisphere perspective to hear this kind of insight from Aus - I recently read an article on Jones from a BBC journo who had interviewed some of his old Randwick and Wallabies mates, but this shits all over it.
 
(Please tell me you didn't just copy-paste from somewhere!)

SimonAdd

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="588365" data-time="1466007124">
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I was about to spit tea & then read this in the comments -
 
This is pretty dubious. You've mentioned Sio's foot placement but haven't acknowledged the role this played in the collapsed scrums or the fact it resulted from poor set up. You don't mention that Sio was completely extended before the ball was put in. You mistaken effect for cause, for example stating Cole's bind changes from long to short and causes Sio's collapse when in fact Cole's hand clearly remains on the same part of Sio's shirt.
 
Yup, Sio got his set wrong. He's at full stretch & can't hold himself up. He was trying to get a "hit" - which is very hard under the new laws, and Coles just sat back & let him drive off balance & straight into the dirt.
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100% this. Sio was setting himself up in a position where the only way he could keep the scrum up was if Cole hit him hard on the engage and drove upwards. Cole recognised it and didn't give him the satisfaction; took a penalty or two before the ref realised but it was definitely Sio's bad positioning that kept him kissing the dirt.
 
Of course, once the ref realised and warned them both, Sio moved his feet closer and Cole responded by smashing him on the engage and driving over the top for the yellow. Very smart prop play, from a guy I thought was on the verge of being replaced as England's tighthead. Showed the value of experience.
 
The Aussie media seem to be chanting the mantra of 'boring in', which is nonsense as Cole was never in a position to attack the hooker. Will be interesting to see him versus Slipper at the weekend though.

SimonAdd

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tordah" data-cid="587777" data-time="1465885637">as a non native English speaker, I honestly have a hard time understanding what Hoiles was actually saying. Was he implying Jones had gay sex in the coaches' box? I seriously don't get it, especially the shrinkage bit</blockquote>
Yeah, it made no sense. I think most people would be more forgiving if he had actually said something funny or witty that happened to be borderline-offensive. As it is people didn't know what he was trying to say, just that he sounded like a prick. 
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SimonAdd

The whooping, hollering etc? Whatever. It's not my preferred style but so long as it's directed at his own team and not the opposition I'm fine with it. 
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SimonAdd

Joubert is a bit of a homer ref and also is obviously Southern Hemisphere, so assume advantage to Aus in the Second Test. At least more than Poite. 
Owens is more or less 50/50 I think. 
I'm almost hoping Aus win next week to set up the giant finish. 
But then I think f*ck them, let's go 3-0. 
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SimonAdd

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="586693" data-time="1465650036">Very pleased with that - unsurprisingly. A win in Aus for us is rare and to put more points on them than the 2003 team is great too. However at no time did I feel comfortable until we got the turnover in the last minute. The try after that was just window dressing. Aus looked so bloody dangerous and every time Folau got the ball in anything that looked like space I was thinking about how to empty my colostomy bag. 
A big call from Mr Percentage to take of Burrell but our defensive pattern looked better straight away. 
Nathan Grey remains a complete cock.</blockquote>
Christ, do you think Burrell was yanked? I assumed he had a knock. 
Agree that we were much better without him though. 
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It was the best game I've seen Cole play for a long time. I thought he had stagnated as a player and was just treading water until a younger guy put his hand up. But he was very good today; very smart, experienced scrummaging, got over the ball a couple of times like he used to and even carried to good effect once or twice. 
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Great post, agree with all of that Nick. England's defence looked stretched by the Aussie pace, we're just not used to playing against anything like it. A few more balls go to hand from Aus and they could still have won. Although I thought we looked more comfortable when Burrell went off; he's just not a smart defender. 
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SimonAdd

Fair play to Aus too, came out like a house on fire and never gave up either towards then end. Every time their backs had the ball I was digging my fingernails into my palms. The Southern Hemisphere really do play at a different pace. 
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tordah" data-cid="586660" data-time="1465646449">
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for real? He was the best player on the park for sure
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Yep. He's lost a couple where he's come off the bench for Sarries, I think, but none where he's started.
 
European Cup Champion, Premiership Champion, 6N Grand Slam Champion, European Player of the Year, just beat the Wallabies in Aus. What was I doing at 21?

SimonAdd

Woohoo! Edge of the seat stuff. I thought after 10 minutes it was going to be a thrashing, but if there's one difference in the England team under Jones it's composure.
 
Maro Itoje has started 23 games of rugby this season. He's won 23 games of rugby this season.

SimonAdd

Don't love the England team, I have to say. Robshaw, Vunipola & Haskell with no backrow cover on the bench? Youngs-Farrell-Burrell? I think Jones has taken his 'bodyline' schtick too seriously, particularly given the Australian tight 5 and midfield.
 
Worried we'll fail to dominate physically, Aus will up the pace and we'll have nowhere to go.

SimonAdd

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="586186" data-time="1465584998">
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Saxons win 32-24. Really enjoyed that game, good watch. That Haley looks very handy, reminds me of a young Dagg. Kvesic is quite the douche huh.
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Why so? I didn't see him do anything douchey?
 
I'm a big Kvesic fan but he was a mixed bag today. Won some great turnovers like no-one else in England can, but also slipped off a couple of tackles and failed to own the space between his pack and flyhalf in defence.
 
Cracking match, Haley & Hepburn pick of the bunch for me. Tompkins good too, although still a little raw. How Dan Robson isn't with the main team in Australia I'll never know, and it was as gutting to see him go off with that ankle injury as it was great to see him score that ridiculous try on it.
 
For the Saffers, I thought their big blonde lock looked good, and they weirdly seemed to have all their bulk on the bench. Next week should be fun assuming both teams rotate a bit.

SimonAdd

@gollum: great article. The transformation of Leicester's backline under Mauger has been striking and it's good to hear he's actively trying to develop Tuilagi's skills to see him play 12 long-term. 
Having a pacy outside-break merchant at 13 in Betham is similar to what he'll have with England in Joseph/Daly, so hopefully it'll end with Manu taking the England 12 shirt. 
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Marler should miss the Australia tour for that. Not a whole lot of impact but he clearly lines the guy up for it; you can't have that. 
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SimonAdd

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="sparky" data-cid="564295" data-time="1457805562">England win 25-21. Wales left it too late. 
Mario Itoje had an absolute stormer. He looks World Class already, but I suspect his long-term future is at 6 rather than Lock. He could develop into one of England's greatest ever players.</blockquote>
Yep, I've probably said it 3 times on this thread already, but Itoje is a 6 for me. He can play lock very well, but his size may mean that he struggles against the biggest guys in that position (eg someone like Etzebeth). 
For now, he's shown that he must start. So if everyone is fit, it comes down to whether we prefer: 
4. Itoje 
6. Robshaw 
or 
4. Launchbury 
6. Itoje. 
I'd prefer the latter, and would start with that vs France. 
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SimonAdd

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Disgusted of TW" data-cid="563569" data-time="1457565513">Early injury in the centres, put Daly in, keep Manu for the last quarter - if that's indeed Eddie's plan?</blockquote>
Ford goes down, Farrell-Daly-Joseph? Still worried. 
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SimonAdd

I'm against elbows on the ground sole because banning them would encourage more fighters to try to pass the guard, thus opening up both more submission and more escapes back to the feet. There's little more boring in MMA than the guy on top staying in guard, hiding his head and throwing the occasional elbow. 
Although pushing your opponent up against the fence kneeling them in the thigh also runs it close. 
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SimonAdd

The England bench is built for impact, but an early injury that brings Cowan-Dickie or Tuilagi into the game before the last 20 would really worry me. 
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The Silver Fern

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