@nostrildamus That's tough to gauge. Munster played well but you can't say they presented test-level opposition.
From the uncapped guys, I'd probably say Fabian Holland and AJ Lam. Holland is a great athlete who stepped up the intensity of his play and Lam showed some nice subtle touches to go along with great physicality in the midfield.
I thought it was a good, entertaining game. Munster really showed up in front of a big crowd at Thomond Park. I'm always surprised at some of the crowds the Irish are able to muster for these kinds of exhibition games. Their U20s also regularly play for crowds of 7000+ people.
On Plummer, I think he really benefits from a secondary playmaker in the backline, like Perofeta or Sullivan at the Blues, especially in the face of an agressive defensive line like Munster's. With Stevenson at fullback and Tupaea at second five, there wasn't a whole lot of secondary playmaking going on. Stevenson can act as a playmaker but he didn't get much involved in this game. The Georgia game might see Love or even Jacomb get a start at fullback (if Love isn't available).
And finally, the refereeing was pretty shocking at times. Not quite as bad as Craig Evans in the Scotland Fiji game, but some of the decision-making (like the Farrell-try or the Kirifi-non try) was genuinely ridiculous. Without some of these decisions, you'd think the gap would've been substantially bigger between these two sides.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks XV v Munster:
Anyone know the relative strength go this Munster side bs their A team?
I'd say there are 6 players who are, more or less, first-choice: Ryan (although typically at tighthead), O'Mahony, Hodnett, Coombes, Farrell and Haley.
The pack should go well enough. They would be a lot stronger with Jean Kleyn and Tadhg Beirne, though.
The backline, however, is bordering on the criminal. No Casey, Murray, Crowley, or Nash means that the team is both going to lack direction and attacking potency. It's hard to see where their points are going to come from.
The bench, apart from Scannell, are mostly a bunch of academy players and journeymen.
The talent discrepancy is serious. I'm sure Munster won't embarrass themselves, it's at Thomond and they typically perform well in these international fixtures. But on paper the mismatch is substantial.
I wasn’t originally planning on closely watching the game between NZ Schools and the Māori U18s but, after seeing the game on Thursday, I felt like the efforts of the Māori Under 18 Ngā Whatukura team deserved some more attention.
But first, I’d like to give a quick follow-up on the NZ Schools team. Against Australia U18, it was noticeable how they were disconnected in defence, often shooting up alone without any sort of organized defence behind them. Against the Māori U18s, this disconnection appeared in attack as well, with a lack of coordination between carriers and cleaners, and a lack of trust in each other when attacking opportunities presented themselves. To give just one example: right before half time and behind 8 to 19 on the scoreboard, NZ Schools has an attacking scrum around the halfway line, a great place to set up a strike play and get into the opposition 22. The scrum is dominant, Sinton passes to Tuaimalo Vaega who passes out the back to Norrie – wearing 15 on his back but playing as the first five in this game – and this is the situation:
Norrie has both the space and the numbers to his left but doesn’t pull the trigger.
The strike move has resulted in an attacking overlap on the left, with three black players facing 2 white defenders. The Māori defence is also drifting rather than pressing, meaning that there is plenty of space to work with, with the possibility of going through the hands or having Verster, in the white headgear, making the cut-out pass. Instead, Norrie doesn’t pull the trigger, tucks and goes for the carry straight into the defender, Haitai-Waenga, who easily stops him. NZ Schools then recycle the ball for another 6, largely ineffective phases around the 10-metre line, before the Māori U18s are able to get a breakdown steal and boot the ball into touch for halftime.
I’d argue that Norrie’s reasons for his conservatism here are rooted in a broader loss of confidence within the team, their inability to efficiently retain possession in both this game and the previous one making them hesitant to spread the ball. Hoping to build momentum through keeping the ball, it had the opposite effect, making the NZ Schools attack highly predictable and vulnerable at the breakdown. The constant interchange at the first five-position throughout these three games – first Inch, then Verster, then Norrie – disrupted the fluidity of the attack and the organization of the backline, with very little attacking shape being discernible throughout the game nor tactical variation employed through the halfbacks’ kicking game.
This stood in stark contrast to the Māori U18 team, their identity as a team built on two clear-cut pillars: the efficient use of strike plays off of set-piece to score points and a steely defensive resolve, built on work-rate and an intense contestation of the breakdown. These two pillars each came to the fore in different halves: in the first half, the Māori U18 scored three tries off of strike plays. In the second half, they made a collective 84 tackles (my own recorded stats, so give or take on accuracy), many of them on their own try-line, only conceding the one try to Aio Keith 10 minutes before the final whistle.
The strike plays themselves were simple but effective: a back peel off a lineout in the NZ Schools 22 down the blindside led to a line-break and a number of phases on the NZ Schools try-line, before Rata-Makene goes over after the Schools defence became compressed. For the second strike play, with an attacking Māori U18 lineout close to the line, they went with the old “McCaw in South Africa”-move, where a lineout fake to the back leads to space in the middle for the receiver to run through.
He's even wearing the right number. The openside Broome (white, second from left) does his best Richie-in-Joburg impression.
And, finally, a Saumaki knock-on near the 22 after a restart resulted in a Māori U18 scrum. From this scrum the 9, Ngawati, passed to his first five, Rata-Makene, who had multiple running options: Neilson, the 14, running the switch, Waitai-Haenga, the 12, running an overs line, and Crosswell, the 13, running a hard unders line. The actual target is the 15, Brailey, sitting in the boot behind the two midfielders, who is found by Rata-Makene as both NZ Schools midfielders are fixed onto their counterparts, effectively splitting the midfield, with Brailey eventually reaching the tryline.
Note also how Broome, the Māori U18 openside (white jersey, top left), has detached early from the scrum to run a blockers line and impede the NZ Schools sweepers from making an effective tackle on Brailey.
Whereas the first half displayed the Māori U18s skill in exploiting the NZ Schools’ defensive gaps, the second half exhibited their steel and character in defence. This resolve is less visible in screenshots like those above than it is in raw numbers. Some standouts:
The back five: early in the second half Noah Gregory came on for Oliver Church. The back five of Gregory, Alex Arnold, Caleb Woodley, Jayden Broome and Cruiz Simpson were relentless in their defensive efforts, with Gregory, Arnold and Woodley each making 8 tackles (all numbers from the 2nd half alone), Broome making multiple repeat efforts and Simpson winning 3 lineouts and 2 turnovers. Woodley, the captain, played the full 80, barely standing up by the end of it.
The replacement props: Kane Paranihi en Raharuhi Palmer came on in the 47th minute and combined for 14 tackles in 30 minutes. They each also had multiple hard carries up the middle, scrummed well and contributed in every possible way, with Paranihi even winning a turnover and catching a stray lineout throw.
Le’sharn Reiri-Paku: the diminutive halfback came on for Kah’nal Ngawati in the 55th minute and exemplified the warrior spirit of the team, as he made 6 physical tackles, made a crucial clean preventing a turnover and held up an NZ Schools player, leading to a Māori U18 scrum. It is not often that a replacement halfback actually adds real value to a side under defensive pressure but that is exactly what Reiri-Paku did.
When the whistle blew, it was obvious what the victory meant to this Māori Under 18 Ngā Whatukura team, with great scenes of jubilation. Let me then wrap up with, what I believe, is an appropriate Māori proverb, a Whakataukī, in honor of the team:
Itiiti rearea, teitei kahikatea ka taea.
“Although the rearea (the korimako bird) is small it can ascend the lofty heights of the Kahikatea tree.” Few would have given this Māori U18 side much chance against the much more fancied NZ Schools side. But like the rearea, by working hard and putting all their energy into it, they too can and have been able to reach rare and lofty heights.
@Canes4life I think Cashmore and the Hurricanes would be a good fit. I’ve tried looking a bit closer at Cashmore’s game this NPC and his strengths (organizing a backline, providing quick service, solid kicking game) should complement the playing styles of the more X-factor players in the Canes backline, like Roigard, Higgins, Naholo and Love. The latter need plenty of ball and space and Cashmore is a guy who can provide that.
It’s still to be seen how he would adjust to Super Rugby level and its speed of play but purely from a playing style perspective, it makes a lot of sense.
So I rewatched the NZ Schools game. It wasn’t pretty viewing, as you’d expect. NZ Schools first three possessions of the game all led to turnovers: Verster throws a miss pass when it wasn’t on, leading to Pahulu going rather meekly into touch; then, Verster, playing under advantage, tries an attacking chip with zero deception (the subsequent attacking lineout is lost because of a baulk); in the third possession, Sinkinson passes out the back to an unexpecting Saumaki who drops the ball. When they finally decide to turn to the kick as everything else isn’t working, Norrie kicks it out on the full after it was passed back inside the 22 by Verster, leading to an attacking Australian lineout. When it rains, it pours. And it didn’t get much better after that, unfortunately. So it was a rough watch.
I thought I’d share some notes, if anyone would be interested in reading them. What stood out to me was the NZ Schools defence, especially its breakdown in communication at certain times, of which I’ll try to give a few examples. This was further compounded by some clever Australian attack, which was able to identify similar weaknesses in both NZ Schools and Barbarian U18 defence, in its earlier game.
The first Australia U18 try would be a good place to start. Gold has a lineout on the NZ 22, a simple throw to Langi in the middle pod leads into a straightforward Lemoto carry (where he pretty much demolishes Sinkinson). After two quick rucks inside the NZ 22, Grover, the Aussie 9, throws a long pass wide and this is the state of the NZ defensive line:
Aussie alignment and Kiwi chaos
Stanley has shot up to make the spot tackle in the hopes of disrupting the Aussie overlap, Guerin has his back turned to the play and Wallis is disconnected from the defensive line. The predictable result: Bassingthwaighte waltzes between Stanley and Wallis to run in pretty much untouched. The basis of this try is the power of the Lemoto carry and the Grover snipes around the ruck but it’s made easy by the lack of communication and connection between the NZ Schools defenders. When you have lone ranger-defenders (Stanley) going alone because the situation is so desperate, then there’s been a bad breakdown in defensive responsibilities.
Another example is the series of events which is probably most indicative of the game as a whole. It displays NZ Schools' lack of patience in attack, their lack of communication in defence and Aussie U18s ability to pounce on these mistakes. The sequence occurs around the 21 minute mark. After 15 minutes of hectic and erratic play, NZ Schools pulls off a great backline move, Norrie getting around his man and nicely putting Stanley through the gap, the passage of play leading to a Verster try. They have a good restart and are working themselves all the way up to the Aussie U18 tryline, only for Spratley to attempt an overambitious placing of the ball (when recycling the ball and setting up the next phase would’ve been the much safer bet), leading to a knock-on and an Australian goal-line dropout. In the subsequent sequence, Spratley has a run-up receiving the drop-out (not making a dent in the defensive line), Sinton throws a low pass to Stanley who drops it. A scrum ensues where the ball is quickly released by the Aussie 9 and for some reason, the NZ Schools scrum keeps pushing even though the ball is already on the other side of the field. This is the situation after the first ruck post- scrum:
I’m pretty sure you can fit the Titanic through this defensive gap. More than enough room for HMS Lemoto.
There is about 15 metres of space between the first and second defenders outside the ruck (Keith and Spratley), which is, understandably, easily exploited by Heinz Lemoto. Again, the foundation is a breakdown in communication. Typically, the 9 shouts ‘break’ when the ball is released, signalling for his loose forwards to detach from the scrum and get into the defensive line. While I can’t pick everything up from the ref mic, Sinton does shout ‘hold’ twice before sprinting off. While Sinton is a very eager and willing defender for a 9, his first responsibility is still to organize and direct his forwards. It would be easy to blame Spratley for his tardiness but what really causes this wide defensive gap is a breakdown in communication between the 9 and his pack.
The irony of these examples is that I really don’t think Australia U18 needed this communicative breakdown to excel. They showed plenty of examples of clever play and identification of opportunities. I’ll limit myself to one example, a try in this game which was a near-exact copy of one in their game against the Barbarian U18s. The sequence starts with a missed kick at goal by Fowler. In the following restart, Lemoto carries Spratley with him for about five metres (there’s a theme here), after which Bassingthwaighte attempts a grubber through which deflects off of Saumaki into the open where it is collected by an Aussie U18 player. Again, an NZ Schools defender, Falloon, shoots up alone without anyone following or a cohesive line behind him:
Ceci n’est pas une ligne défensive.
The resulting linebreak is easy enough and after a number of ineffective phases around the NZ 22, the Aussie U18s set up a short switch play where they slightly fracture the NZ Schools defence. What is interesting about this movement is that Australia U18 ran a very similar set against the NZ Barbarians U18s, where they played a couple of phases in the area around the Barbarian 22 before trying a switch pass against the grain. While the Barbarian U18s read this play much better – leading to Edwin Langi being smashed behind the gainline – the desired result was ultimately the same: the created expectation of a quick pass out of the ruck by the 9 and the added attention to possible switch plays. Then, what Grover was really looking for was the lock 5 as the pillar defender:
Spot the difference. Grover identifies the 5 lock as pillar defender and sneaks through, both sequences leading to tries.
Both Falloon and Frazer Brown, the Barbarian U18 5 lock, were tasked throughout their games with being aggressive defenders, shooting out of the line and putting pressure on the opposition playmakers. I think that Grover is aware of the fact that this responsibility makes their role as pillar defenders more complicated, taking advantage of this responsibility-overload to sneak through around the ruck. This was not so much a breakdown in NZ Schools communication as it was beautifully executed manipulation of the defence.
So, those are some things I noticed and found interesting in the game. I still don’t think this is a bad NZ Schools team though, by any means. Guerin, Pahulu, Stanley and Norrie all seem like supremely talented athletes. Sinton, although he made a lot of mistakes in this game, is still a quality player who will hopefully learn a lot from the experience. Aio Keith always impresses me when I see him play, if only for the sheer levels of shithousery he gets up to. The forwards will bulk up and get their chances. The team as a whole just seemed to be a little underprepared, of which I think the lack of communication is a prime symptom.
If NZ Rugby wants to keep its current team structures intact, it would probably be best to have the NZ Schools team and NZ Barbarians U18s play against each other in a genuine match. I know they played and trained together in camp but a genuine game would have a lot more intensity and would serve as proper preparation for the other games. The upcoming game against the Māori U18 team should be a good contest.
I know this is way too much text and probably not in the spirit of the forum. But what can I say, I like writing and I like reading. Maybe there are others who are the same. Either way, I think I’m going to take a little break now. I’ve spent way too much time on watching these games and writing these posts. Good fun though.
@NTA said in 2024 NZ Schools Rugby:
A lot of kids in private schools playing at a high level are there on the NRL chequebook.
Does that make them "league", though? I'm sure a lot of players enjoy both codes while they're at school (Saumaki, Pahulu and Vaega also have ties to league in the NZ Schools team).
RA doesn't have the funds of the NRL. But if they're smart with their targeting of players - like they did with Goldsbrough and Jorgensen - they can get the occassional player. But they have a long way to go, though, and they don't seem to be particularly capable either.
But with a result like today, I think it's fine to give them some plaudits.
@NTA Yeah, that's rough, eh? The only hope is that players enjoy the high-performance environment, so if you have good structures and, subsequently, good results, at the very least they're a bit more likely to stay.
Can't see how they hang on to Lemoto and Makasini, though. They'll be highly sought after.
I think a lot of credit also has to go to this Australia U18 side. Their accuracy and organization was impressive, making the NZ Schools execution errors stand out a lot more.
RA seem to have invested considerable resources to a more centralized rugby academy system - development camps, U16 and U19 comps, player of national interest program - so it's good that it's bearing fruit. The Australia U18 side looked like a cohesive and well-drilled team.
At the moment, NZ Rugby are trying to have their cake and eating it too, retaining NZ Schools as the primary side while using the Barbarian U18 team as a pseudo-high development team. It has its merits. But then you're left with two decently strong teams, who are both beaten by the side which has put all of its eggs into the single high-performance basket.
@Magic65 said in 2024 NZ Schools Rugby:
Eli Langi
This is the kind of player I feel who is often missing in these NZ age grade teams: tall and athletic, but equally with a big engine and physically abrasive. He would make a world of difference to this NZ Schools side.
@Bovidae I hadn't noticed the 8-9-10 combo thing, good point. It should be interesting to see how Spratley and Saumaki work together, they both strike me as natural number 8s.
Are you going to the games again today? I thought the crowd was already pretty good for a game on Wednesday, but I'd expect a bigger attendance for these games.
The NZ Māori Under 18 Ngā Whatukura Boys and NZ Heartland U20 teams:
The Māori Under 18 Ngā Whatukura lineup looks pretty good. Lots of talented players, both in the forward pack and the backline, so it'll be interesting to see how they gel as a team. I'm looking forward to seeing more of Cruiz Simpson, the little that I saw he looked promising.
I don't know anything about the Heartland U20 team, apart from the fact that Benazzi Ward's parents must be really into their rugby.
@Bovidae Some interesting decisions. I think Sinton as starting 9 and captain are good choices, but I'm not sure about their seeming intent of keeping the halfback combinations together if it means that Inch doesn't start. I guess we'll see how it goes. Verster, from what I've seen, does seem to be the (marginally) better kicker, though, so maybe that also played a part in their thinking.
The loose forward trio, I'm not sure. Tocker doesn't offer a whole lot apart from his attacking prowess and pace on the wing, and, despite his height, isn't particularly dominant in the lineout either. So I understand that he's on the bench. But, to me, 6. Hutchings, 7. Keith, 8. Saumaki appears more balanced. I suspect Tito wants as many players on the field who can get over the ball, and Keith, Saumaki and Spratley are all very able poachers. It does make sense, as Australia wants to play a possession-based game, using its powerful carriers to move up the field.
The decision that I don't really get is Van Der Heyden on the bench. The Aussie U18 maul defence was a weakness against the Barbarians and in Van Der Heyden you have someone who is incredibly difficult to stop when he's pushing in the middle of the attacking maul. Perhaps they want a shorter tighthead to put pressure on the Aussie loosehead's scrummaging technique.
@Bovidae Yes, that penalty against Johnston was fair, he misjudged his height and brought on the collapse. I'd argue that he gained ascendancy in the subsequent scrums, though, mostly because of the aforementioned walking around by the Aussie reserve loosehead.
But technical infringements were mostly let go by the refs in both games, hence the need for aggression and perceived dominance.
Australia U18 for Sunday's game against NZ Schools has been named:
The side in question:
They've gone for a 6/2 split with another number 8, TJ Talaileva, added to the bench.
These past days I’ve taken another few looks at the games. Some more random thoughts:
The return of the catch and pass: it was noticeable how clean both NZ Schools and Barbarians U18s were in their execution on attack. One reason for this, I feel, was their catch and pass: the backs were aligned well and the pass was quick out of the hands. Recent Kiwi age grade teams have regularly stuffed up drawing their man, thinking that attacking and manipulating the defensive line means waiting to pass at the last moment. Defences, in recent years, have used this hesitation to shift their focus on the recipient, meaning that the receiver of the pass gets both ball and defender at the same time. The hesitation with the ball then turns from what was previously an attacking advantage to a serious benefit for the defence. It was good to see NZ Schools and Barbarian U18s move away from this tendency. Both teams did really well in creating clarity: either the ball is decisively carried or the ball is shifted quickly.
Searching for scrum dominance rather than scrum technique: both the NZ Schools and the Aussie U18s front-rows are made up of power-athletes atypical of the position. Liam Van Der Heyden (TH), Charlie Wallis (LH) (NZ Schools), Kingsley Uys (LH), and Nicholas Hill (LH) (Australia U18) are all very tall and relatively lean props, who carry strongly and who have deceptively quick feet. Their build clearly impacts their scrummaging techniques as well though: Van Der Heyden, in his first scrum against Samoa U18, was still nearly standing up when binding to his opponent, and Nicholas Hill’s back was so arched it’s hard to imagine a lot of power being able to come through it (he seemingly relied on his own upper-body strength and quickly started walking around). Rassie Erasmus recently made an interesting distinction between dominant and technical scrums. Refs, not always as clued in on what goes on in the scrum as Springbok head coaches, can award scrums who look to be dominant, even if scrummaging technically incorrect. Seeing how both NZ Schools and Australia U18s front-rows are lacking in scrum technique, the battle on Sunday will probably be decided by the scrum that is most aggressive and ‘appearing dominant’.
Plenty of backline talent coming through: Like I said before, it’s hard to take too much away from the game against Samoa U18. That being said, when a team is so utterly dominant, it can lead to some silly decision-making, as players try to be too clever. This wasn’t the case for the NZ Schools backline, however, which remained very focused and precise throughout the game. Harry Inch kept the game direct and simple, using the power and speed of the players around him to probe and eventually break the Samoan defensive line. The backline players also stayed connected well, Pahulu, Vaega, Stanley and Guerin constantly running off shoulders and looking to manipulate space rather than attacking the line individually. They all look like great athletes but it was pleasing to see them using their sense of the game rather than just their individual ability. In the Barbarians game, Pyrenees Boyle-Tiatia was impressive in his ability to find and create gaps, connecting well with both his midfield partner, Saunderson-Rurawhe, as well as his outside backs. The Barbarian backline was consistently able to get round the Australian defensive line which shot up (albeit a little passively at times) through quick hands and smart running lines.
@Bovidae That's unfortunate, I was looking forward to watching him play.
So he'll play another year for St. Peter's? I didn't know he was that young. Then again, I've read that small passage a couple of times now and I can't work out whether they're actually saying he'll play another year of First XV rugby or that he'll just return to playing rugby in 2025 (for club or whatever).
@Bovidae I know he's had some injury issues and it must've impacted his speed, because when watching him against Cardiff his speed doesn't really stand out anymore. It was mostly footwork and running angles which allowed him to make ground rather than beating players through raw pace, like you can see Manson do.
He's named on the wing for the Scarlets for their game tomorrow against Connacht, lining up against Mack Hansen.
@kpkanz The entire game of NZ Schools versus Australia Schools and U18s is on Youtube, if you're interested. I think a lot of people took notice of Murray after that game:
If anything, he's always been a great player to watch.
It's funny, looking at those lineups now. In a forward pack containing Tamaiti Williams, Soane Vikena, Saula Ma'u and Sam Darry, the most 'hyped-up' name at the time would arguably have been Niko Jones, after his performance for St. Peters in the Top 4 Final. It's not easy to predict future success.
@kpkanz said in Crusaders 2025:
The guy was an under 20s representative
Not to take away from your general point, but as far as I remember/can find Murray wasn't selected for either the broader NZ U20s training squad selected in 2020 (no team named because of Covid) nor for the 2021 NZ U20 team. I also remember hearing around that time that he took a short break from the game.
Murray was a real standout of the 2018 NZ Schools squad, though, as a 16/17-year old. He had a great game at fullback against Australia Schools and U18 where, I think, he scored a try and looked an incredible counter-attacking threat.
I think it's fair to say that he didn't quite crack on to become the next Cullen. I watched the recent game between Scarlets and Cardiff where Murray played on the left wing (quick sidenote for those interested: you can watch full replays of URC matches after the game's been played on their website URC.tv if you live in an area where there are no tv rights. You have to register though). You can tell he's a very talented player, he's got natural footballing instincts. But player of the year, I'm not so sure. (another sidenote: Plumtree is looking good, has added muscle, but still makes some poor decisions at times).
All that being said, I'm not a particular fan of the McNicholl-signing or the Crusaders' recent recruitment strategies. Super Rugby is a comp of athleticism and speed, I'm not sure how players like McNicholl and O'Connor fit into that.
Australia U18s lock in side to face New Zealand Schools
