The Silver Fern

Ravindra currently on 6 off 37. Is this what we've been asking for?

@bayimports said in Nomination - Best thread of the year:

Ohh tough, but going to vote Wingers farewell thread as it started as a bloke saying farewell on his way to live in Pyongyang, then descended into lots of kind words..very funny

Hell yes I'd blocked him so missed this. Gold.

what a catch that's the ticket

@sparky said in Sporties - Nominations - Favourite Sportsman/woman (Non Rugby/Cricket):

@delicatessen Luke Littler.

that's the chap

That darts manchild

Asafo Aumua. Not the finished product but big steps in the right direction

And a catch taken, the boys have been busy

You beauty Henry

@gt12 said in NBA Season - now 24/25:

See Stewart get ejected for the fragrant on the Freak? Shit like that would turn my hair grey if I were a coach or owner; imagine having your star get hurt from a fluffybunny play like that.

stink guy

@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:

@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:

I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.

I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.

Potentially thats the reason this was a grubber - the intention was more to kick toward space with a bit of pace, the desired result being either a defensive lineout 5 out or one of the the chasers regathering.

Pre-meditated and counter-attack aren't mutually exclusive, especially second phase counter-attack.

@reprobate we're a bit closer to consensus I think.

Have options, that comes from showing that we're willing to use any option, but don't lets criticize kicking for it's own sake.

And be better at kicking. Big gains if we could do that.

Oh and also don't kick if we're losing and it's within 4 minutes of full-time. Ever. Do not do this. Unforgiveable. Punishable by death via cheese grater.

yeh it's not taking a test away from NZ

@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:

@delicatessen I think the risks of turning the ball over are much lower, and if you can't trust an AB 10 to make an accurate long pass, then who can you trust? There are times when it's the best option, but I don't think that was one of them.

If you can't trust an AB 10 to make an accurate kick pass, then who can you trust?

I love a good long ball as much as the next guy, but there can never be only one right option in a given situation. Either could've worked well, I think the kick slightly more so.

Re the 2nd pic, thanks for the comparison. It was very good by McKenzie, shaping to kick turned the winger in, then the pass to Jordan's outside shoulder was right on the money. I don't find the pictures very different to be honest - If Barrett had run, and Ioane slid slightly outside, you have Telea 1 on 1 as per the try. I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I think the context matters here too: we're losing at this point in the game, we're hot on attack off turnover ball and the previous ruck we had good momentum from Tuipolotu. To me, kicking that ball away is just crazy / a total lack of patience.

No problem (there were in fact many problems).

Main difference is space behind the line - next to none for McKenzie to kick into.

Re your other points

• yes we may have scored with a pass, or may have lost ground, or any number of other options
• agree it looks premeditated - anything wrong with that in itself?
• context matters i agree
  - half an hour to go in the match, so not time to panic and hold the ball forever yet. still a good time to show their rush defense a few kicks to slow them in future - directly helped McKenzie I think
  - no better time to kick than off turnover ball, opposition out of position so tougher to cover

Edit: confused myself at a crucial point in proceedings. First time for everything. Fixed now.

@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:

@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:

I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:

Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).

What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.

Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:

The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.

One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.

It is nice to have some actual rugby talked. I'm late to the party, but am definitely a critic of kicking the ball away. That first pic is a clear overlap, and I reckon kicking it away is criminal. As per others, McKenzie makes the wide pass and we either score or are hot on attack still with possession. The solution is not Barrett standing deeper and being more telegraphed in kicking away attacking possession, it's having a passer at first receiver.

A long pass isn't that much higher percentage play than the kick pass, and has it's own risks - so much harder to run onto with correct timing, risk of throwing behind the ballcarrier slowing momentum, risk of arcing it too high leading to defense arriving at the same time as the ball - all momentum and territory killers. Not much chance of an intercept in this scenario, granted.

The kick pass, executed correctly, gives the same result as the long pass but with an extra 10-20m of field position, with time to adjust the pace of the receiver onto the ball to maximise territory gain. The risks are pretty evident, but teams nowadays are quite happy defending that deep in enemy territory - the most likely result of turning the ball over is an exit kick leading to a set piece (good attacking option) at or beyond halfway.

The 2nd pic, we are hot on attack on their 22. The best option isn't kicking the ball away, it's keeping ball in hand and attacking - save the 'might score in a single phase but more likely will lose possession' kick for when you have a penalty advantage. The grubber didn't work because as they often do, it hit something. A chip may well have been marked - they often are. And that freeze frame I think would look pretty damn similar to one in the 75th minute just prior to the game tying try, with McKenzie instead of Barrett and Jordan instead of Ioane - if anything there are less defenders here - and that's without considering the space on the open.

Here's your freeze frame, since you couldn't be bothered to find it yourself: 7-10m closer to the line, 2.5 support runners instead of 4, 3.5 defenders instead of 4.5 - very different picture. McKenzie shapes to kick, the defense turns as they're expecting the kick (because of varied tactics earlier?), and then have to readjust to the pass - excellent vision by McKenzie but Jordan and Telea did incredibly well after that.

I agree grubber was the wrong option, a chip would've been a higher percentage play, but kick was certainly the play.

Look at how we scored our tries: Sititi offloads to Telea. Jordan runs a great line off a Barrett switch. The disallowed one for the deliberate knock-on, passing beating the man. McKenzie hitting Jordan on his outside shoulder freeing Telea up just enough. By contrast, most of our 'clever' kicks simply turned over possession. You can of course argue that with better implementation that wouldn't be the case - but I reckon we've seen more than enough to know that these are not high-percentage plays for us.

Skill improvement needed yes. Tactically sound decisions though, also yes.

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:

@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:

@MiketheSnow That's asking a whole lot of the forwards who are positioned there. All of the potential playmakers - both Barretts and Will Jordan - are on the right hand side. On the left you have Savea, Cane, Lomax, Williams, Sititi and Clarke. They're also in no discernable shape to execute the overlap.

Kiwi forwards are skilled but if you're expecting them to pull off a backline move on their own, then I think you may be expecting a bit too much from them.

When you have either of or both Savea and Sititi running into space that will attract more than one defender

And you have Clarke to run it in if he's given space and time

Demonstrably better than the choice they made IMHO

Still need someone to take the pass and redistribute each time - the first five players are Ardie, Cane, Lomax, Williams and Sititi.

No way every one of them is going to be in position to do so at the speed required.

Plus they'll all want (correctly) to be available to clean out should the picture change/move break down at any point.

Not happening Mike.

Does Young struggle with pace? No idea what the stats say.
If he's technically perfect but can't get into position soon enough to combat elite pace bowling with movement, could that explain his lean start as well as his good run in India?

Ideas on how to produce rank bunsen burners at home?

Mate I'd hate to live with a lot of you blokes. Seems a few watched this thread rather than the game.

Positives:

• We won
• Our back three + Jordie had a great game under the high ball, won a huge majority of the contests
• BB kicked well to that, seemed like a plan they'd worked on - many kicks were just at the far end of contestable range, so perfect to run on to with speed.
• Sititi played a blinder
• Telea played a blinder
• We had lots of forwards running into holes followed by forwards running onto offloads
• Both wings played well with ball in hand
• Great leg drive from a few key forwards - Ardie, Pat T, Sititi in particular
• Excellent bench scrum - good signs for Tosi, and impressive by Aumua after 70 min
• 4/4 goalkicking with none of them easy

Negatives

• Kicking tactics:
  • chips, although one was regathered and almost led to a try. That was under penalty advantage, debatably the only good time to try it
  • couple of aimless kicks by BB and Jordie. Need calmer heads or more tactical clarity.
• Discipline. Need to find a solution/train harder to stop tackling off the ball. Yes they're running decoys but you can't full-on tackle them. A lot of the other penalties were unlucky/fairly standard
• Cane poor. Certainly true of his carrying and the tackle off the ball hurt. I didn't study his work in the tight stuff though, so not writing him off yet.
• Handling. I think this was by far our biggest issue. The amount of times we had opportunity let down by poor hands/forced 50/50 offloads/passes poorly located was frustrating. Need to work on the basics more, catching/passing in contact at pace.
• Midfield distribution. Jordie had an off game, but Rieko just doesn't do it for me as a midfielder. So so much better as a wing, ALB can fill the midfield role till Proctor/someone else comes through. I think we've given Rieko enough time there to prove himself.

Mixed

• Jordan. Moments of brilliance, couple of brainfades. High effort though.
• Ardie? Made some metres no one else in world rugby would've made, but anonymous elsewhere. Not sure why, tackling stats (1/3) are weird and suggest a role I didn't spot at the time.
• Scrum. Bad early, good late. Keep working on it.

Overall stoked, we had a gameplan that we executed at times, and we gritted out the win - we scored points where we needed to.

This is year one of a four year process - way too early to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Fun first half of Bunnies v Dolphins. Dolphins clearly playing the better footy, but still 18-10. Both fullbacks have ben superb, as well as Bostock for Dolphins.

Don't normally enjoy non-Warriors NRL (or Warriors NRL), so that's saying something.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350334308/damian-mckenzie-takes-hold-all-blacks-no-10-jersey-while-richie-mounga-looms-large

Voerman presuming Barrett or Perofeta will start the Fiji match.

Would there really be any reason to rest Mckenzie? There's a three week break till the next test after Fiji, and the longest run of consecutive tests is five, to finish the year.

I can see the point of bringing another player in at 10 vs Fiji to ensure they're up to running the cutter in Robertson's scheme, but Barrett shouldn't need to have a sample game after 124 caps. If Perofeta is a fullback and to be replaced by Jordan when he comes available, neither should he.

I see more value in continuity learning the new system, especially in a lower pressure game where more risks can be taken.

We've still got Australia and Japan to come if we need to introduce another 10 to the game plan later.