The Silver Fern

Mate I'd hate to live with a lot of you blokes. Seems a few watched this thread rather than the game.

Positives:

• We won
• Our back three + Jordie had a great game under the high ball, won a huge majority of the contests
• BB kicked well to that, seemed like a plan they'd worked on - many kicks were just at the far end of contestable range, so perfect to run on to with speed.
• Sititi played a blinder
• Telea played a blinder
• We had lots of forwards running into holes followed by forwards running onto offloads
• Both wings played well with ball in hand
• Great leg drive from a few key forwards - Ardie, Pat T, Sititi in particular
• Excellent bench scrum - good signs for Tosi, and impressive by Aumua after 70 min
• 4/4 goalkicking with none of them easy

Negatives

• Kicking tactics:
  • chips, although one was regathered and almost led to a try. That was under penalty advantage, debatably the only good time to try it
  • couple of aimless kicks by BB and Jordie. Need calmer heads or more tactical clarity.
• Discipline. Need to find a solution/train harder to stop tackling off the ball. Yes they're running decoys but you can't full-on tackle them. A lot of the other penalties were unlucky/fairly standard
• Cane poor. Certainly true of his carrying and the tackle off the ball hurt. I didn't study his work in the tight stuff though, so not writing him off yet.
• Handling. I think this was by far our biggest issue. The amount of times we had opportunity let down by poor hands/forced 50/50 offloads/passes poorly located was frustrating. Need to work on the basics more, catching/passing in contact at pace.
• Midfield distribution. Jordie had an off game, but Rieko just doesn't do it for me as a midfielder. So so much better as a wing, ALB can fill the midfield role till Proctor/someone else comes through. I think we've given Rieko enough time there to prove himself.

Mixed

• Jordan. Moments of brilliance, couple of brainfades. High effort though.
• Ardie? Made some metres no one else in world rugby would've made, but anonymous elsewhere. Not sure why, tackling stats (1/3) are weird and suggest a role I didn't spot at the time.
• Scrum. Bad early, good late. Keep working on it.

Overall stoked, we had a gameplan that we executed at times, and we gritted out the win - we scored points where we needed to.

This is year one of a four year process - way too early to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

@mariner4life said in Foster signs 2 year extension:

@kiwimurph said in Foster signs 2 year extension:

Now that I think about it - this whole place runs on confirmation bias on basically every topic - me especially!

i've been here a while, i don't think i have seen anyone change their mind on here ever. They may concede a point every now and then

but

if there is any evidence that will back the initial assertion up they'll pile back in with "i told you so"

What are we sposed to do? Admit we're wrong? On the internet?

@booboo said in RWC 2027:

@nzzp said in RWC 2027:

@nta said in RWC 2027:

@nzzp said in RWC 2027:

Resurrecting this

Looks like USA are going to bid.

fluffybunnies.

yeah, but how damn good would a US based tournament be?

the only downside is distance - it'd be like having a games in Iraq and Ireland as part of a tournament

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350334308/damian-mckenzie-takes-hold-all-blacks-no-10-jersey-while-richie-mounga-looms-large

Voerman presuming Barrett or Perofeta will start the Fiji match.

Would there really be any reason to rest Mckenzie? There's a three week break till the next test after Fiji, and the longest run of consecutive tests is five, to finish the year.

I can see the point of bringing another player in at 10 vs Fiji to ensure they're up to running the cutter in Robertson's scheme, but Barrett shouldn't need to have a sample game after 124 caps. If Perofeta is a fullback and to be replaced by Jordan when he comes available, neither should he.

I see more value in continuity learning the new system, especially in a lower pressure game where more risks can be taken.

We've still got Australia and Japan to come if we need to introduce another 10 to the game plan later.

We have 3 fullbacks, 2 wings and 2 halves in the backline. I don't think they're bad selections for this game, but I think they're a serious reflection on who NZR have invested in for the centres in the last few years. Yes we have Goodhue and ALB and Ennor in the wings, but 3 midfielders is nowhere close to enough depth.

Honestly, who else is up and coming? Quinn Tupaea? So why isn't he getting game time? There's literally no-one else - Aso and Laumape have been pushed overseas, and most of the other prospects are still at least 3 years off test level. Blues only have two true midfielders in their entire squad for goodness sake.

We get annoyed at the trend of playing 10s at 15, but I think the trend of playing outside backs in the midfield is worse tbh. It's no wonder our backline seems so much more clunky than it should - we're using finishers as distributers.

@Bones said in Positions and players to watch - 2021:

@MN5 pfftt...umscathed.

Rugby: Nonu nurses thumb injury - NZ Herald

Former All Black centre Ma'a Nonu is in a cast with a possible broken thumb, but it is unclear how the injury happened or how long it will keep him off the field.

The 22-year-old turned up to Wellington representative training yesterday in a "precautionary cast" as medical staff assess whether he has suffered a break.

Bit premature

Much as I hate to see us lose, the more pressure on fozzie the better. Also love watching this French team play. It's a jolly fun brand of rugby.

Please may we rename this AB Porps?

https://globalelitesports.com/job/general-manager-rugby-hurricanes/

There's a spot spare on the bus for any willing ferner - it's not like they're going to hire someone with sensible ideas.

Bloody realists.

This thing is ours to lose, boys!

@tim nice and relevant and not petty, good comment 👍

@landp said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):

@booboo Yeah, well I won't mock the accent as I developed a fair old kiwi twang to avoid the piss-taking at school ... like apparently we say "fark" as opposed to "f*ck" (I'm told a bit remains, mainly wore off after years working all over)

Does Lemon and Paeroa even exist these days, or is that one for the "Old guys discuss old stuff thread"?

Yeah but it's L&P - I keep reading your name as Land Pee which is very confusing and way too lowbrow for this esteemed forum.

@pukunui said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

Sounds naff

Stuff

FFS, I hate this shit. How about they work on getting the TMO to not fuck up clear decisions. Referring them more things to get wrong is not going to improve the game.

Not sure how allowing the defending team to kick the ball away after the attacking team has been held up over try line is going to promote attacking play.

But hey, lets go all out like the BBL and introduce power plays and power surges and mega awesome lightning periods where tries are worth 100 and fans can vote on removing the boots of an opposition player for 10mins.

This has my full and unwavering support.

If dangerous contact with the head is a red card offence (no matter the intent, nor the outcome), then shouldn't whoever knocked Savea and Codie's heads be carded too? Just cos they weren't out in the open, doesn't mean they aren't dangerous.

The ref probably made the right call on the Barret face kick, but that makes a mockery of the idea that rugby wants to protect player welfare. Rugby only wants to protect the image of player welfare.

@Tim said in Positions and players to watch - 2021:

Laumape - not suited to test rugby. Too small to play his direct, physical game at that level. Poor distribution, running lines aren't adequate at that level.

I disagree. He's not been given a chance at test level with a game plan that suits his style. He can change a game with that power and linebreak ability, and he's shown really good option-taking after that line break, which is where a lot of physical backs break down.

The games he's been in have at test level have been frustrating to watch with no clear game plan that I could see, let alone one which took advantage of his or other players' strengths. When he's running on to the ball at pace, there are few better line breakers in world rugby.

@bovidae said in Hawkes Bay vs Ta$man (RS):

A sensational start by HB in this game. I thought that their loose forwards completely outplayed the Ta$man trio. Segner was anonymous in the 1st half.

I didn't think there was as much in the Tu'ungafasi/Dixon incident as Smith was trying to make us believe. A penalty was suffice and Hawke's Bay scored anyway. It did seem like there was a South African director in the Sky OBU when replays start being shown without any warning. Apikitoa got away with a no arms tackle to the legs later in the game which was equally as dangerous.

How is a no arms tackle to the legs as dangerous as to the shoulder/neck area?

I thought definite yellow, but we couldn't hear the TMO side of the convo. There weren't any real good angles, but it was clearly no arms, with very significant force, very close to the head. If they really want to come down hard on head contact, plays like that that run so much risk of a serious head contact should be dealt with fairly severely.

canefan:

@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:

@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:

I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:

Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).

What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.

Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:

The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.

One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.

It is nice to have some actual rugby talked. I'm late to the party, but am definitely a critic of kicking the ball away. That first pic is a clear overlap, and I reckon kicking it away is criminal. As per others, McKenzie makes the wide pass and we either score or are hot on attack still with possession. The solution is not Barrett standing deeper and being more telegraphed in kicking away attacking possession, it's having a passer at first receiver.

A long pass isn't that much higher percentage play than the kick pass, and has it's own risks - so much harder to run onto with correct timing, risk of throwing behind the ballcarrier slowing momentum, risk of arcing it too high leading to defense arriving at the same time as the ball - all momentum and territory killers. Not much chance of an intercept in this scenario, granted.

The kick pass, executed correctly, gives the same result as the long pass but with an extra 10-20m of field position, with time to adjust the pace of the receiver onto the ball to maximise territory gain. The risks are pretty evident, but teams nowadays are quite happy defending that deep in enemy territory - the most likely result of turning the ball over is an exit kick leading to a set piece (good attacking option) at or beyond halfway.

The 2nd pic, we are hot on attack on their 22. The best option isn't kicking the ball away, it's keeping ball in hand and attacking - save the 'might score in a single phase but more likely will lose possession' kick for when you have a penalty advantage. The grubber didn't work because as they often do, it hit something. A chip may well have been marked - they often are. And that freeze frame I think would look pretty damn similar to one in the 75th minute just prior to the game tying try, with McKenzie instead of Barrett and Jordan instead of Ioane - if anything there are less defenders here - and that's without considering the space on the open.

Here's your freeze frame, since you couldn't be bothered to find it yourself: 7-10m closer to the line, 2.5 support runners instead of 4, 3.5 defenders instead of 4.5 - very different picture. McKenzie shapes to kick, the defense turns as they're expecting the kick (because of varied tactics earlier?), and then have to readjust to the pass - excellent vision by McKenzie but Jordan and Telea did incredibly well after that.

I agree grubber was the wrong option, a chip would've been a higher percentage play, but kick was certainly the play.

Look at how we scored our tries: Sititi offloads to Telea. Jordan runs a great line off a Barrett switch. The disallowed one for the deliberate knock-on, passing beating the man. McKenzie hitting Jordan on his outside shoulder freeing Telea up just enough. By contrast, most of our 'clever' kicks simply turned over possession. You can of course argue that with better implementation that wouldn't be the case - but I reckon we've seen more than enough to know that these are not high-percentage plays for us.

Skill improvement needed yes. Tactically sound decisions though, also yes.