Black Caps Tour to Zimbabwe
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="602163" data-time="1470044678">
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<p>Yes, really. Unless he's a true frontline spinner, he's surplus to requirements in test cricket and I'd much rather have Neesham or Anderson in that spot. And if he can become a frontline test spinner, then I'd still shuffle him down a spot to 8 with Neesham or Anderson ahead of him on batting ability. I don't see how the heck we can justify playing a spinner, plus a spinning all-rounder, plus a batsman who can bowl part-time spin, unless we're on the most spin-friendly of wickets<strong><em>. To me it feels like he's holding down the all-rounders' role as a caretaker for one of the former.</em></strong></p>
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<p>We have a problem in that we don't have a 6 who can average 40. To be fair we almost never have (MacMillian for a while? Oram got close) Santner & Anderson both look like 35 on a good day, Anderson maybe less, Neesham will never be fit enough to consistently play tests, he might struggle to play ODIs.</p>
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<p>We sort of have to play an all rounder there because our pace attack isn't a consistent threat in different conditions, Southee has regressed to where he was 3 years ago - superb in swinging conditions, fodder otherwise, Boult has sort of stayed still. Wagner is a workhorse (good 3rd quick) but good backfoot batsmen won't have an issue with him. And the rest are increasingly looking like they aren't fit enough to be anything bar ODI / T20 specialists. So we need a 4th bowler to balance that.</p>
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<p>On a turning wicket we play 3 quicks, Ish & Santner, on a non turning wicket drop Ish for Anderson. If Anderson isn't fit, Ish & Santner is no worse than any other combo even on a pace track, unless we dig up a test 6 who can bat like a test 6. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="602187" data-time="1470050766">
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<p>We have a problem in that we don't have a 6 who can average 40. To be fair we almost never have (MacMillian for a while? Oram got close) Santner & Anderson both look like 35 on a good day, Anderson maybe less, Neesham will never be fit enough to consistently play tests, he might struggle to play ODIs.</p>
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<p>We sort of have to play an all rounder there because our pace attack isn't a consistent threat in different conditions, Southee has regressed to where he was 3 years ago - superb in swinging conditions, fodder otherwise, Boult has sort of stayed still. Wagner is a workhorse (good 3rd quick) but good backfoot batsmen won't have an issue with him. And the rest are increasingly looking like they aren't fit enough to be anything bar ODI / T20 specialists. So we need a 4th bowler to balance that.</p>
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<p>On a turning wicket we play 3 quicks, Ish & Santner, on a non turning wicket drop Ish for Anderson. If Anderson isn't fit, Ish & Santner is no worse than any other combo even on a pace track, unless we dig up a test 6 who can bat like a test 6. </p>
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<p>Asking NZ to have a 6 who can average those numbers might be a bridge too far, I mean only a few short years ago James Franklin was seen as that guy !</p>
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<p>I'm all for "variety" but not if the variety is substandard like the majority of our spinners are.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="602436" data-time="1470122848">
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<p>"Asking NZ to have a 6 who can average those numbers might be a bridge too far, I mean only a few short years ago James Franklin was seen as that guy !"<br><br>
My bad ;)</p>
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<p>Steve Waugh's don't just grow on trees you know....</p> -
<p>Awesome avatar MN5, I presume that's Bennett from "Commando". Yep, I get it, in the Crusaders chainmail away jersey.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Provincial Stalwart" data-cid="602458" data-time="1470125465">
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<p>Awesome avatar MN5, I presume that's Bennett from "Commando". Yep, I get it, in the Crusaders chainmail away jersey.</p>
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<p>Yes, please refer to the Movie Review thread in "Off topic" for further information of how that came about.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="602449" data-time="1470124362"><p>
Steve Waugh's don't just grow on trees you know....</p></blockquote>
Without doing a stats guru query to back up my hunch, I'd say Waughs batting ave at 6 wasn't all that, would be sub-40 I reckon. Once he got good he moved up the order and scaled back the bowling. <br><br>
So an all rounder at 6 averaging >40 is indeed scarce.<br><br>
Ours are quite good, especially as they aren't holding back a specialist bat who could average 40. Anderson would actually be a long term candidate for 5 given the current lack of internal/domestic competition. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="602476" data-time="1470127147">
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<p>Without doing a stats guru query to back up my hunch,<strong> I'd say Waughs batting ave at 6 wasn't all that</strong>, would be sub-40 I reckon. Once he got good he moved up the order and scaled back the bowling.<br><br>
So an all rounder at 6 averaging >40 is indeed scarce.<br><br>
Ours are quite good, especially as they aren't holding back a specialist bat who could average 40. Anderson would actually be a long term candidate for 5 given the current lack of internal/domestic competition.</p>
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<p>56 Batting @ 5.....51 batting @ 6.........spent pretty much his whole career in these spots with his bro owning 4 for the majority of that time.</p>
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<p>Only 15 innings at 3 and 4 and averaged mid 30s there.</p>
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<p>I do get what you're saying though, six can be a funny position very often a guy there is a bowler of some note too or a keeper. I remember Viv Richards batted there quite a bit which I found odd for the best batsman in the team.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="602482" data-time="1470128117"><p>
56 Batting @ 5.....51 batting @ 6.........<br><br>
Only 15 innings at 3 and 4 and averaged mid 30s there.</p></blockquote>
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Wow.<br><br>
Much better than I thought. <br><br>
Remember his career average being high 30s about the time he graduated up to 5. Maybe some time at 7 when he was still relatively mefiocre with guys like Phillips or Mathews at 6 dragged his career average down. <br><br>
Or, alternatively, my memory has gotten dodgy. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="602486" data-time="1470128417">
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<p>Wow.<br><br>
Much better than I thought.<br><br>
Remember his career average being high 30s about the time he graduated up to 5. Maybe some time at 7 when he was still relatively mefiocre with guys like Phillips or Mathews at 6 dragged his career average down.<br><br>
Or, alternatively, my memory has gotten dodgy.</p>
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<p>Cricinfo has made fools of us all at times.</p>
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<p>But as we're all agreeing on there's nil to fuck all guys in NZ cricket who we could safely say could average 40+ at six.....Neesham and Anderson ( someone mentioned Santner, the jury is still out for me ) look mid 30s capable but that's provided they prove of value with the ball too, this is pretty up in the air for me.</p>
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<p>When Steve Waugh batted 5-6 he had at various times the likes of Hayden, Slater, Langer, Taylor, Boon, Border ( who was another who batted six a lot ) Ponting, Lehman, M Waugh, Hussey ( another one ), Clarke etc in the team with him......Aus had the luxury of years of excellence from a large number of guys ( none of those mentioned averaged less than 40 ) so it wasn't uncommon to have them 4 down but a guy with a menacing record striding to the crease. With Gilly at seven and the bowlers of the caliber they had it didn't matter that their top six may have been limited at times with the ball in hand.</p>
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<p>We have one genuinely world class batsman and another who is very, very close ( who even at this stage in his career may make that jump ) so in short we're not gonna have a shitshow trying to follow that blueprint. Watling may not be as exciting as Gilly was but he is developing a fine record, does he bat six or seven ? doesn't matter much to me cos the guy at the other end in whichever his position isn't is pretty much guaranteed to be something of a "batting" all rounder.</p>
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<p>I don't want him to be Neesh, Anderson or Santner if the bowling isn't consistently up to test standard.</p> -
<p>Jimmy Neesham averages 38.25 after 9 tests. Whilst that's a small snapshot thus far, it does include 3 50s and 2 hundreds against 3 different opponents. Four of those scores were made at 6. Problem is, the bowling average is very similar. And he needs to keep fit.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="602495" data-time="1470129606">
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<p>Jimmy Neesham averages 38.25 after 9 tests. Whilst that's a small snapshot thus far, it does include 3 50s and 2 hundreds against 3 different opponents. Four of those scores were made at 6. Problem is, the bowling average is very similar. And he needs to keep fit.</p>
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<p>I'm a massive fan of his but see your point. I can see that batting average dropping over time to be honest.......I just hope the bowling does too. Him and Anderson at 5-6 puts a couple of guys who whilst having serviceable records with the bat just wouldn't provide enough of a bowling threat to the very best batsmen.</p>
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<p>I see them both fighting for the one spot but that's assuming Nichols turns out to be good ( then there's always the chance Guptill may drop to 5 )</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="602495" data-time="1470129606">
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<p>Jimmy Neesham averages 38.25 after 9 tests. Whilst that's a small snapshot thus far, it does include 3 50s and 2 hundreds against 3 different opponents. Four of those scores were made at 6. Problem is, the bowling average is very similar. And he needs to keep fit.</p>
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<p>I'm a big Neesham fan, more so than Anderson, but I just don't see him being fit enough long term. He's had a pretty solid T20 campaign for Derby this year (less so ODIs)</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=10775;team=955;type=tournament'>http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=10775;team=955;type=tournament</a></p>
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<p>At least no one has tried to wedge Jesse Ryder in yet.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="602537" data-time="1470136713">
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<p>I'm a big Neesham fan, more so than Anderson, but I just don't see him being fit enough long term. He's had a pretty solid T20 campaign for Derby this year (less so ODIs)</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=10775;team=955;type=tournament'>http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=10775;team=955;type=tournament</a></p>
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<p>At least no one has tried to wedge Jesse Ryder in yet.</p>
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<p>Yeah I think I finally gave up on the dreams of a Williamson/Taylor/Ryder 3/4/5 last year. Sigh. If only.</p>
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<p>On conversations on here I picked us to be discussing the latter two as NZers who could threaten 50 averages, one still might and another emerged who will be the best of them all.</p> -
<div>"De Villiers, Morkel ruled out of NZ Tests"</div>
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<div>result for us<br><br>
also:<br><br>
"Afrikaans-language newspaper Rapport claimed CSA have agreed on six players of colour in every starting XI, of which at least two must be black African. In this squad, South Africa have seven players of colour which includes two black Africans."<br><br>
very....political (although Rabada and Bavuma are there actually there on merit I guess? I imagine they'd both be in anyway)</div> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nzzp" data-cid="603198" data-time="1470374848">
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<p>sorry, I meant 88/8.</p>
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<p>Australia lucky to avoid the follow on
You go away for half an hour, and this happens? Herath with 4, the other spinner with 3</p>
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<p>Herath with a hat trick apparently! Voges Neville Starc... Caught, LBW, LBW</p> -
<p>a test hatrick. Nice</p>
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<p>And Pakistan are all over England in the 3rd test as well. </p>
