Super Rugby - The Future
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@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
For whatever reason Super rugby has not.
Central contracting affects this too. If you're an AB, you get your salary paid by NZR. So sitting in the 23 or even the wider squad is no bones - the franchise isn't paying you. Leads to stockpiling players.
And of course, you get the vicious circle where playing for a successful franchise makes you more likely to get picked for the ABs, which means $$$ - so good players want to go and play there. NFL has salary caps for a reason - it equalises competition.
And this daylights the question about what Super is. It's built to be a feeder for the ABs, not a standalone comp. People are now trying to get it independent and meaningful, but I fear that ship has largely sailed.
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@nzzp said in Super Rugby 2024:
People are now trying to get it independent and meaningful, but I fear that ship has largely sailed.
yeah....im getting close to giving up...if it dies it dies
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@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
Is it difficult for teams to climb the ladder as they only get the players for half a year? Then they all go back to their provinces (or America) who have varying standards or facilities, or they go to their main job, the ABs.
It must be incredibly difficult to develop a culture and a system and get wholesale buy-in when you lose access to your guys for half the year. Worse still if they go back to half a dozen provinces, rather than a couple.
Well said. Super Rugby has to work itself around the All Blacks season when it should be a standalone competition that runs concurrently to it.
The franchises could become streamlined (like the SA clubs back when they played in Super Rugby) as when the Super season finished effectively the same teams continued in the Curry Cup, so there's alignment and continuity with the same coaching group and mostly the same squad of players as well.
I think we will eventually have to modernized competiton running the full length of the rugby season (the current 6-8 home games a year isn't sustainable) February through to the end of October.
Same as NH the later half of the season would probably feature a European Champions/Challenge Cup equivalent with Super teams divided into pools with the JRL teams and you have predetermined venue (like Tokyo national stadium) for the final - ultimately needs to be centred and focused around their market to generate maximum revenue.
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I understand why the season is the length it is, there is a small metter of $s. NZ has a pop of 6 mill, there is no way we can have squads big enough to play through test rugby, it just doesn't add up, same as Aus. In rugby we are both blessed and cursed that test rugby is top of the pile!
I am happy with length anyway, because I still enjoy club rugby and NPC anyway. Ok some might one comp going for a long time, I personally like a number of comps!! -
@Dan54 and thats possibly one of the biggest issues, the fanbase disagrees on what they want from competitions, i fall into the camp of one longer comp (or at least the same teams playing in different comps like a champions league) where teams can have dips in form without screwing their season, i cant think of other sports where the fan disagree on the shape of the comp....the comp they follow just is...and normally has been for a long time
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@Kiwiwomble Yep mate, I not suggesting I right or wrong, just I kind of like the sprint thing. The way rugby is structured and having tests as the ceiling, we don't have any alternative I believe. Market isn't big enough to run squads big enough to play through test season etc, only way to change it things in reality is to not have mid year tests, and I would rather have them than a longer super season.
And in general test comps (the most popular) are even shorter and allow even less for dip in form etc. -
@Dan54 yeah, and i dont KNOW im right either...i just cant help feeling running two comps just has to be more expensive, maybe not in player salaries as we know its semi pro but all the admin, travel, support staff and splitting the sponsorship dollar...all gut feel but anecdotally i feel people (and sponsors) would be more invested (and hand over their hard earned dollar) if the comp was bigger and more meaningful
as for the test window being smaller...yeah...but thats what its it...its meant to be this show piece of the best...club/franchise level is supposed to be about developing the international players and engaging with the fans (IMO)...the local connection
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if you ask a large amount of people of a certain vintage (ie the demographics of this forum) they'll point to somewhere about 1997 as the pinnacle. Super 12 was new and exciting and awesome. ABs played the NPC in front of big crowds and it was awesome. The ABs won heaps, the Tri Nations was new and awesome. So how did they fit it all? I had a quick look
in 1997 the season was broken up like this
Super 12 Feb 28 to May 24th
3 AB tests (Fiji and Argentina x2) in June
3N July 19 to August 23
NPC August 15 to October 26 (9 teams)
AB Tour 4 tests in November (12 tests for the year)In 2022, the season was
Super Rugby February 18 to June 18
3 AB tests in July (Ireland)
Rugby Championship August 6 to September 24
NPC August 5 to Oct 22
AB 4 tests in November (13 for the year)Effectively we have just stretched the same number of games out, and completely removed the top 35-40 players in the country from any tier 2 rugby for half the season (and spread the talent across more teams)
I grabbed one random player, and Andrew Mehrtens played 23 games in 1997 (7 Super Games, 6 tests and all 10 NPC games). In 2022 Ardie Savea played 22 games, 11 Super Rugby and 11 tests.I don't really have a point, other than it is interesting that we have the same basic structure 27 years later, but interpreted differently.
Would take a little more investigation, but i wonder that the difference a year looks like for an AB squad player now as opposed to 97? -
@mariner4life interesting
I pulled up 2019 Super for comparison as it didn't have any Covid hangovers. Started 15 Feb through to 6 July. It's just too long. That, and round robin no longer matters when 8/12 qualify for playoffs.
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"2022 Ardie Savea played 22 games, 11 Super Rugby and 11 tests"
i think thats what bugs me, and i know it doesnt bother other so no worries if thats you...just doesnt feel right if internationals are supposed to be but guys are playing just as many all black games as clubs games, i feel it should be a showpiece, something special rather than their main job and the clubs games fit in around
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
"2022 Ardie Savea played 22 games, 11 Super Rugby and 11 tests"
i think thats what bugs me, and i know it doesnt bother other so no worries if thats you...just doesnt feel right if internationals are supposed to be but guys are playing just as many all black games as clubs games, i feel it should be a showpiece, something special rather than their main job and the clubs games fit in around
throw in AB enforced rest periods for Super Games
and the perception (more like reality) that for core test players Super Rugby form means very little, and you have the issue in a nutshell. If the system itself doesn't take itself seriously, why should we?
I know i harp on about the NRL a lot, but could you imagine the league media if say, Nathan Cleary took a couple of games off to freshen himself up for Origin, or was allowed to cruise as long as he was primed for finals? But rugby fans are fed a constant diet of "well, he has bigger fish to fry later in the year"
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
"2022 Ardie Savea played 22 games, 11 Super Rugby and 11 tests"
And I guess that ratio is why the top level players feel burned out at the end of every season, it's just a lot of very high intensity test match rugby, all the time.
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@mariner4life and why it is harder to get dropped from the ABs than to get in (obviously has some merits, but overall not ideal)
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@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
if you ask a large amount of people of a certain vintage (ie the demographics of this forum) they'll point to somewhere about 1997 as the pinnacle. Super 12 was new and exciting and awesome. ABs played the NPC in front of big crowds and it was awesome. The ABs won heaps, the Tri Nations was new and awesome. So how did they fit it all? I had a quick look
in 1997 the season was broken up like this
Super 12 Feb 28 to May 24th
3 AB tests (Fiji and Argentina x2) in June
3N July 19 to August 23
NPC August 15 to October 26 (9 teams)
AB Tour 4 tests in November (12 tests for the year)In 2022, the season was
Super Rugby February 18 to June 18
3 AB tests in July (Ireland)
Rugby Championship August 6 to September 24
NPC August 5 to Oct 22
AB 4 tests in November (13 for the year)Effectively we have just stretched the same number of games out, and completely removed the top 35-40 players in the country from any tier 2 rugby for half the season (and spread the talent across more teams)
I grabbed one random player, and Andrew Mehrtens played 23 games in 1997 (7 Super Games, 6 tests and all 10 NPC games). In 2022 Ardie Savea played 22 games, 11 Super Rugby and 11 tests.I don't really have a point, other than it is interesting that we have the same basic structure 27 years later, but interpreted differently.
Would take a little more investigation, but i wonder that the difference a year looks like for an AB squad player now as opposed to 97?Really interesting post.
I guess the biggest difference between then and now is the battering that player bodies take, especially if they play in most of the test matches.
My feeling is that the Super / NPC division should be put out to pasture - that is too many teams and not enough focus on having the best players with their squad for most of the year. The way to get around it is to have players with a new competition and the ABs, so we would have Super, then break for ABs, then more Super, then more ABs.
Without really thinking, I wonder whether we should (1) add some Japanese teams to a cross-over super competition that acts as a club Championship / Plate (maybe we might need a bowl) with teams seeded based on their J-League and home competition results. That would be 'Super' rugby in my model and teams would play with their 'home' teams with quite big squads.
In place of NPC, I would (2) add two-three super teams (which would be the shit fight) and play a local competition with our 'super' sides , under which I'd run 'reserve' super sides, and players could go up and down as needed. Australia could do the same thing and I would suggest they take on Moana Pasifika to add teams. This competition would be the qualification for which division you play in for Super rugby club championship.
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@taniwharugby said in Super Rugby 2024:
@mariner4life and why it is harder to get dropped from the ABs than to get in (obviously has some merits, but overall not ideal)
yeah the ABs stopped being a "rep" team a long time ago.
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@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
I know i harp on about the NRL a lot, but could you imagine the league media if say, Nathan Cleary took a couple of games off to freshen himself up for Origin
But that's also a reflection on who is paying their salaries and wields the power. I don't know what the players get to play SOI but it will be chump change compared to their large club salaries. The same in football where clubs will regularly withhold players from playing during the international break with "injuries" that magically come right before the next club game.
In NZ, the SR salaries are only a small proportion of the top players annual salary, and skewed towards the playing for the ABs. Throw in the NZRPA demands about player welfare and it's obvious which competition gives.
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@Bovidae might have changed by now but i thought for a long time after going professional English players still only got a match fee (and not a big one in comparison)....the pride of the jersey still played a big part for playing for england
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you get $30k a game to play Origin. Not too different to your average per game rate for Origin level players.
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a lot of this discussion could probably be moved to the "state of the game" thread
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@gt12 said in Super Rugby 2024:
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
if you ask a large amount of people of a certain vintage (ie the demographics of this forum) they'll point to somewhere about 1997 as the pinnacle. Super 12 was new and exciting and awesome. ABs played the NPC in front of big crowds and it was awesome. The ABs won heaps, the Tri Nations was new and awesome. So how did they fit it all? I had a quick look
in 1997 the season was broken up like this
Super 12 Feb 28 to May 24th
3 AB tests (Fiji and Argentina x2) in June
3N July 19 to August 23
NPC August 15 to October 26 (9 teams)
AB Tour 4 tests in November (12 tests for the year)In 2022, the season was
Super Rugby February 18 to June 18
3 AB tests in July (Ireland)
Rugby Championship August 6 to September 24
NPC August 5 to Oct 22
AB 4 tests in November (13 for the year)Effectively we have just stretched the same number of games out, and completely removed the top 35-40 players in the country from any tier 2 rugby for half the season (and spread the talent across more teams)
I grabbed one random player, and Andrew Mehrtens played 23 games in 1997 (7 Super Games, 6 tests and all 10 NPC games). In 2022 Ardie Savea played 22 games, 11 Super Rugby and 11 tests.I don't really have a point, other than it is interesting that we have the same basic structure 27 years later, but interpreted differently.
Would take a little more investigation, but i wonder that the difference a year looks like for an AB squad player now as opposed to 97?Really interesting post.
I guess the biggest difference between then and now is the battering that player bodies take, especially if they play in most of the test matches.
My feeling is that the Super / NPC division should be put out to pasture - that is too many teams and not enough focus on having the best players with their squad for most of the year. The way to get around it is to have players with a new competition and the ABs, so we would have Super, then break for ABs, then more Super, then more ABs.
Without really thinking, I wonder whether we should (1) add some Japanese teams to a cross-over super competition that acts as a club Championship / Plate (maybe we might need a bowl) with teams seeded based on their J-League and home competition results. That would be 'Super' rugby in my model and teams would play with their 'home' teams with quite big squads.
In place of NPC, I would (2) add two-three super teams (which would be the shit fight) and play a local competition with our 'super' sides , under which I'd run 'reserve' super sides, and players could go up and down as needed. Australia could do the same thing and I would suggest they take on Moana Pasifika to add teams. This competition would be the qualification for which division you play in for Super rugby club championship.
Mate can you hear the whinging about breaking for test season though? Basically stopping a comp for 2 months or even 6 weeks won't work.
And looking for answers with all due respect, I don't give a f*** what NRL does with Origin etc. This is rugby with a completely different set of rules/values etc. As I said the beauty and curse of our game is test rugby is the high point. Add to that the complexity of the game where yoy can't throw a team together and expect a good performance , it's even more than apples and oranges comparison I think.
