New Crusaders coach

Frank

Yeah, agreed Chris. For all the plaudits, Argentina smashed them in the quarterfinal.
It seems the team were too reliant on a couple of excellent senior player,and when those players were injured, the team fell apart.

Damo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="580225" data-time="1463424666">
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Mark Watson was having a rant about NZ not doing enough to keep Rennie And JJ and putting the boot into Umaga...interestingly he never mentioned anything about keeping Blackadder.... 
I only started listening a bit into the peice but it almost sounded like he was saying Rennie and JJ should be offered loads to go to the Blues? 
He even mentioned it on the show, he is the Twattue of the radio.
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I cannot listen to Mark Watson for more than about 5 minutes. I often start to listen to him when I am driving and I always get more and more annoyed until I switch over in disgust. 
 
And bear in mind that I used to quite like Deaker, so my tolerance for shit stirrers on the radio is quite high

Crazy Horse

So you don't think NZ should be doing more to keep successful coaches in the country?

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="580401" data-time="1463469576">
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So you don't think NZ should be doing more to keep successful coaches in the country?
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What exactly do you propose then, for the likes of Rennie, JJ, Blackadder, shall we add in Gatland, Schmidt, Cotter too? 
 
I agree with trying, but it a small market place here in NZ, so not sure what you thnk can be done?

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Frank" data-cid="580329" data-time="1463450862">
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Yeah, agreed Chris. For all the plaudits, Argentina smashed them in the quarterfinal.
It seems the team were too reliant on a couple of excellent senior player,and when those players were injured, the team fell apart.
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The flip side to that argument is Schmidt developed a gameplan that maximised the abilities of his squad. Once people with any ability were injured, they were fucked. He did coach an Ireland team that beat the All Blacks for 80 odd minutes...
 
Certainly when he was coaching Leinster they were pretty handy.

Crazy Horse

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="580403" data-time="1463469853">
What exactly do you propose then, for the likes of Rennie, JJ, Blackadder, shall we add in Gatland, Schmidt, Cotter too? 
I agree with trying, but it a small market place here in NZ, so not sure what you thnk can be done?</blockquote>
 
Haven't thought too much about it to be honest. On the surface it does seem disappointing that those two coaches are going overseas while the Blues remain a bit of a basket case. But then again, has coaching been the problem at the Blues?

Cantab79

There are ITM Cup winning coaches such as Scott Robertson, Colin Cooper and Tabai Matson waiting patiently in NZ for Super Rugby gigs who can't get a look in right now. The reality is that as a country and we have a massive oversupply of talented coaches, and only 2-3 coaching jobs (All Black Head Coach a 2 x Assistant Coaches) that have genuine prestige and pay wages anywhere comparable to the NH. So every 2 or 3 years we're going to have to get used to losing another handful of talented young coaches. I just hope we can figure out a way to retain Dave Rennie and Scott Robertson, because I think they're two of the best coaches in NZ right now.

antipodean

The transition appears to be NPC, Super Rugby, go OS, come back for the Big Gig. Pray you got your timing right.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="580321" data-time="1463448131">
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What? - The NZRU should over-ride the appointment process to ensure that Schmidt gets the job, because he's at least as good as Coach of the Year Pat Lam?
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They should ensure that due process is being adhered to that candidates are being appointed on merit and their coaching credentials and not on caps for the Crusaders.
 
In fact the NZRU needs to take a good hard look at why non-ABs are having such a tough time becoming Super coaches these days - especially when you consider 4 of the last 5 AB coaches didn't sniff that All Blacks as players. The best Super coach going IMO at least - didn't either.
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="580321" data-time="1463448131">
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Can't say I've much followed Schmidt's progress, but I did note that on the biggest stage, in the World Cup QF vs Argentina, his team "Did Not Get It Done!" 
 
Doubtless a good coach, but I'm inclined to think that he is not Helen Keller's teacher (The Miracle Worker).
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Not saying he is a miracle worker - but his resume to me is far more impressive that Robertson.
 
Even if you don't believe that his resume is certainly different to what we have currently among the franchises. If the ultimate idea is to try and grow the best coaches possible in the world for the AB set up eventually (while developing our players strongly in the mean time) I think you want to have a variety of coaches with different experiences. At the moment we have a homogenous bunch of ex-ABs who came up as ITM Cup coaches and Super Assistants expecting their next job to be the ABs. You could argue Henry was marginally more successful than Schmidt as a coach in the Home Unions, Hansen marginally less. All three and Cotter lost QFs with a home union so must all be a bit shit too.
 
If Rennie wants the AB gig going overseas is the best thing for him to a completely different set of experiences.

profitius

I wouldn't hesitate in giving Rob Penney the job. He did a god job at Munster and its no coincidence that they've been on the slide since he left. 
 
 
Schmidt has a great track record of winning but I'm not sure his style would go down well in NZ.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="580456" data-time="1463515314">
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They should ensure that due process is being adhered to that candidates are being appointed on merit and their coaching credentials and not on caps for the Crusaders.
 
In fact the NZRU needs to take a good hard look at why non-ABs are having such a tough time becoming Super coaches these days - especially when you consider 4 of the last 5 AB coaches didn't sniff that All Blacks as players. The best Super coach going IMO at least - didn't either.
 
Not saying he is a miracle worker - but his resume to me is far more impressive that Robertson.
 
Even if you don't believe that his resume is certainly different to what we have currently among the franchises. If the ultimate idea is to try and grow the best coaches possible in the world for the AB set up eventually (while developing our players strongly in the mean time) I think you want to have a variety of coaches with different experiences. At the moment we have a homogenous bunch of ex-ABs who came up as ITM Cup coaches and Super Assistants expecting their next job to be the ABs. You could argue Henry was marginally more successful than Schmidt as a coach in the Home Unions, Hansen marginally less. All three and Cotter lost QFs with a home union so must all be a bit shit too.
 
If Rennie wants the AB gig going overseas is the best thing for him to a completely different set of experiences.
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I think it's three of the last five weren't ABs - and also only three of the last eight and four of the last ten.
 
It's not in the slightest surprising to me that non-ABs (or non-professional players) have a hard job becoming professional coaches and it will only get worse. Very hard to make a jump from coaching club or schools rugby against people who have spent 10 years playing in a professional environment. How is a Joe Blow from Wanderers going to have the technical rugby knowledge of a Richie McCaw? And there is going to be a continuing flood of pro players retiring and looking for coaching gigs - much faster than current coaches retire.
 
I think the ultimate idea for the Crusaders is to choose the coach who is going win us some titles - if they decide that is Schmdt then all the best of luck to him. BUT, despite that supporters of other franchises liking to use the coaches' origins as a small stick to beat us with, we've only had two coaches in the past 15 years and it hasn't worked out too badly for us. Some new ideas and blood might be good - BUT, we are far from a basket case and there's plenty to be said for continuity as well. Especially when the largest chunk of NZs coaching expertise derives or is descended from Grizz Wyllie's Canterbury teams of the early 80s.

Bovidae

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="580456" data-time="1463515314">
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If Rennie wants the AB gig going overseas is the best thing for him to a completely different set of experiences.
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I think the decision of Rennie and other aspiring AB coaches will depend on whether Hansen extends his contract beyond 2017. If Hansen continues until the 2019 RWC then they'll have little option but to look for an overseas coaching gig in the interim if they decide they've done their time in Super rugby.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="580416" data-time="1463474645">
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Haven't thought too much about it to be honest. On the surface it does seem disappointing that those two coaches are going overseas while the Blues remain a bit of a basket case. But then again, has coaching been the problem at the Blues?
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even if the coach was the issue, maybe Rennie/JJ just want a total change to enhance their CVs, and despite staying in NZ< the Blues just wont cut it, no matter what money is thrown at them?

Crazy Horse

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="580469" data-time="1463521175">
even if the coach was the issue, maybe Rennie/JJ just want a total change to enhance their CVs, and despite staying in NZ< the Blues just wont cut it, no matter what money is thrown at them?</blockquote>
 
Yep, that could very well be the case. No argument from me.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="580467" data-time="1463521133">
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I think it's three of the last five weren't ABs - and also only three of the last eight and four of the last ten.
 
It's not in the slightest surprising to me that non-ABs (or non-professional players) have a hard job becoming professional coaches and it will only get worse. Very hard to make a jump from coaching club or schools rugby against people who have spent 10 years playing in a professional environment. How is a Joe Blow from Wanderers going to have the technical rugby knowledge of a Richie McCaw? And there is going to be a continuing flood of pro players retiring and looking for coaching gigs - much faster than current coaches retire.
 
I think the ultimate idea for the Crusaders is to choose the coach who is going win us some titles - if they decide that is Schmdt then all the best of luck to him. BUT, despite that supporters of other franchises liking to use the coaches' origins as a small stick to beat us with, we've only had two coaches in the past 15 years and it hasn't worked out too badly for us. Some new ideas and blood might be good - BUT, we are far from a basket case and there's plenty to be said for continuity as well. Especially when the largest chunk of NZs coaching expertise derives or is descended from Grizz Wyllie's Canterbury teams of the early 80s.
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Had a moment and totally forgot about Mitch's tour games.
 
Considering McCaw spent the better part of his career at AB level being coached by a former headmaster and average club player, getting scrum coaching from a former pie shop owner and getting ball handling tips from a guy who probably hadn't watched a game of code 5 years before being appointed and getting mental skills tips from Gilbert Enoka - I'd say non ABs have plenty to offer and are absolutely able to teach the elite players a lot.
 
It's very clear across a wide range of sports that the elite coaches are predominantly career coaches or journeymen - Belichik, Ferguson, Popovich, Henry etc. Extremely talented players rarely make good coaches - which bodes well for Razor's prospects.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bovidae" data-cid="580468" data-time="1463521165">
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I think the decision of Rennie and other aspiring AB coaches will depend on whether Hansen extends his contract beyond 2017.
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The other wildcard is Foster. I feel uneasy about him replacing Hansen, but if Hansen feels strongly and endorses him (must like Ted did for him) then you imagine it would be a very difficult situation for the NZRU to go another direction.
 
Ideally you would open up a position on in the AB set up as assistant this year on par with what McLean was in 2012-13 and can perhaps transition one of the guys in there, but with Smith back full time it does seem to be a full house.
 
If Foster has no desire to be head coach (which could be the case - Smith doesn't either) then they should be transitioning a potential heir apparent soon - regardless of if Hansen stays or goes. It's worth having a new strong voice after the RWC to keep things fresh too.

Hooroo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="580473" data-time="1463526082">
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Had a moment and totally forgot about Mitch's tour games.
 
Considering McCaw spent the better part of his career at AB level being coached by a former headmaster and average club player, getting scrum coaching from a former pie shop owner and getting ball handling tips from a guy who probably hadn't watched a game of code 5 years before being appointed and getting mental skills tips from Gilbert Enoka - I'd say non ABs have plenty to offer and are absolutely able to teach the elite players a lot.
 
It's very clear across a wide range of sports that the elite coaches are predominantly career coaches or journeymen - Belichik, Ferguson, Popovich, Henry etc. Extremely talented players rarely make good coaches - which bodes well for Razor's prospects.
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That made me El Oh El at work!

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="580473" data-time="1463526082">
<div>
Had a moment and totally forgot about Mitch's tour games.
 
Considering McCaw spent the better part of his career at AB level being coached by a former headmaster and average club player, getting scrum coaching from a former pie shop owner and getting ball handling tips from a guy who probably hadn't watched a game of code 5 years before being appointed and getting mental skills tips from Gilbert Enoka - I'd say non ABs have plenty to offer and are absolutely able to teach the elite players a lot.
 
It's very clear across a wide range of sports that the elite coaches are predominantly career coaches or journeymen - Belichik, Ferguson, Popovich, Henry etc. Extremely talented players rarely make good coaches - which bodes well for Razor's prospects.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
My point is not whether people who are not ex-pro players have much to offer, it is that less-and-less they probably won't get much of a chance. Seems to me that the NZ rugby pathwa is pretty narrow and I don't see much how you can widen it. But, maybe the NZRU and the unions pay more attention to promising candidates who go through their coaching courses than what I think.
 
I'd do wonder at how much actual coaching some of the guys you've mentioned actually do e.g Sir Alex.
 
Tennis provides an interesting counterpoint - Djok/Becker; Fed/Edberg; Murray/Lendl-Mauresmo; Rafa/Uncle Toni.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="580483" data-time="1463529917">
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My point is not whether people who are not ex-pro players have much to offer, it is that less-and-less they probably won't get much of a chance. Seems to me that the NZ rugby pathwa is pretty narrow and I don't see much how you can widen it. But, maybe the NZRU and the unions pay more attention to promising candidates who go through their coaching courses than what I think.
 
I'd do wonder at how much actual coaching some of the guys you've mentioned actually do e.g Sir Alex.
 
Tennis provides an interesting counterpoint - Djok/Becker; Fed/Edberg; Murray/Lendl-Mauresmo; Rafa/Uncle Toni.
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</blockquote>
 
I spoke to someone who coached upto super level and is not a former player, he said that is the toughest part is ensuring you stand out above those ex players that are vying for the same job...sure your CV is better, but that isn't always what wins the day.
 
I guess there is an argument that the NZRU is trying to help players once their career finishes too, giving them a pathway to another career still in rugby...whereas the other guy is likely already employed.
 
You'd like to think they simply choose the best man for the job, but it isn't always that simple.

Chris B.

My point is a bit different though.
 
If you're coaching club rugby as an amateur - how do you demonstrate that you understand and are capable of coaching a professional team at NPC level if you've never been in a professional rugby environment?
 
It seems to me that it's pretty hard for me to demonstrate I'm the best man to coach (or assistant coach) the Mako$, when Leon MacDonald can point to 10+ years of working in a professional rugby environment as a player and I've got none.
 
Hard but not impossible.

The Silver Fern

New Crusaders coach