NZ tour of India
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Young is a guy I've been following in domestic cricket for a while. He's a much better batsman than his international figures so far suggest. His international call-up coincided with a really bad run of form, but in the years prior he was scoring for fun, including a run-a-ball century against a full strength Australian bowling lineup in the World Cup warmups. I'm not sure that opener is his role (and I attribute part of his failures in test cricket so far to us forcing him to try and turn into an opener), but if we never call him up to the national side again on the basis of his performances so far, I'll be very annoyed. I think his potential is far higher than that of Henry Nicholls and he really should have been picked for this series instead.
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Conway is some player huh, continues to hit runs on a consistent basis.
Well the usual trend continues - we continue to smack India in NZ, and they continue to smack us in India. We were missing some rather key players for this series though.
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I just don't really see much talent in Allen. I understand he's young, and has a lot to learn, but he's severely lacking in the ability to pick up length, shot selection (based on length, not temperament) and awareness. Those sorts of things can't really be coached imo.
I feel like he's in the team because he's a bit of a slogger and it came off miraculously and now we think he's some generational talent.
He has clear technical deficiencies which every team in the world is now aware of. I would prefer to see him out of the ODI team while he works on those in domestic cricket, he remains in the T20 side obviously.
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I'm happy to persist with Allen, the way he took apart the Aus new ball attack in the T20 WC was absolutely phenomenal. You just can't coach that sort of stuff. Putting him back to Domestic cricket where he can just resume being a flat track bully won't help his development one bit. NZ is not like Aus where you can work out your deficiencies at the lower levels, we have to find players with the obvious talent and then persist with them until they develop a more rounded game to minimise their weaknesses.
I do agree that Young needs to be given far more opportunities though, and this series was a great chance to give him some game time.
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@No-Quarter said in NZ tour of India:
I'm happy to persist with Allen, the way he took apart the Aus new ball attack in the T20 WC was absolutely phenomenal. You just can't coach that sort of stuff. Putting him back to Domestic cricket where he can just resume being a flat track bully won't help his development one bit. NZ is not like Aus where you can work out your deficiencies at the lower levels, we have to find players with the obvious talent and then persist with them until they develop a more rounded game to minimise their weaknesses.
I do agree that Young needs to be given far more opportunities though, and this series was a great chance to give him some game time.
Except his domestic stats aren't even good... they're bang average.
He doesn't have the record to justify ODI selection at all.
I'd probably open with Phillips and play Young at 4.
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@kiwi_expat said in NZ tour of India:
I just don't really see much talent in Allen. I understand he's young, and has a lot to learn, but he's severely lacking in the ability to pick up length, shot selection (based on length, not temperament) and awareness. Those sorts of things can't really be coached imo.
I feel like he's in the team because he's a bit of a slogger and it came off miraculously and now we think he's some generational talent.
He has clear technical deficiencies which every team in the world is now aware of. I would prefer to see him out of the ODI team while he works on those in domestic cricket, he remains in the T20 side obviously.
Have you watched any domestic cricket over the last few years? He's clearly got talent to burn, he's just struggling to show it on the international stage. Infact, I'd say it's been a little too easy for him (mostly in t20s) at domestic level and he's probably been brought back down to earth with the step up that is required when batting in Aus, India etc against international calibre bowling.
We've seen his flare at the T20 World Cup so we know what he's capable of. A big work on for Allen in my mind is that he needs to show more composure and patience when he's got longer overs to bat, instead of going helter skelter from ball one.
I'm with @No-Quarter, we should persist with Allen, he's the most explosive batsmen we have in this country and offers a point of difference compared to our classier batsmen like Conway, Williamson etc. He's one of the cleanest strikers of the cricket ball I've seen at the Basin, and at the raw age of 23 I think we need to be patient even though he's in a slump atm.
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Allen is being picked to do a job at the top of the order in both ODIs and T20s, same as what Baz was doing at the end of his career. A quickfire 40 or 50 from 20 balls to start the innings puts us ahead of the game and allows players like Conway, Kane and Latham to settle into their work without the pressure of building a run rate. There's nobody else that can do what he can in that role.
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@Canes4life said in NZ tour of India:
@kiwi_expat said in NZ tour of India:
I just don't really see much talent in Allen. I understand he's young, and has a lot to learn, but he's severely lacking in the ability to pick up length, shot selection (based on length, not temperament) and awareness. Those sorts of things can't really be coached imo.
I feel like he's in the team because he's a bit of a slogger and it came off miraculously and now we think he's some generational talent.
He has clear technical deficiencies which every team in the world is now aware of. I would prefer to see him out of the ODI team while he works on those in domestic cricket, he remains in the T20 side obviously.
Have you watched any domestic cricket over the last few years? He's clearly got talent to burn, he's just struggling to show it on the international stage. Infact, I'd say it's been a little too easy for him (mostly in t20s) at domestic level and he's probably been brought back down to earth with the step up that is required when batting in Aus, India etc against international calibre bowling.
We've seen his flare at the T20 World Cup so we know what he's capable of. A big work on for Allen in my mind is that he needs to show more composure and patience when he's got longer overs to bat, instead of going helter skelter from ball one.
I'm with @No-Quarter, we should persist with Allen, he's the most explosive batsmen we have in this country and offers a point of difference compared to our classier batsmen like Conway, Williamson etc. He's one of the cleanest strikers of the cricket ball I've seen at the Basin, and at the raw age of 23 I think we need to be patient even though he's in a slump atm.
The thing is we need a power hitter as an opener moving Phillips to open is not a good idea we need players in the second half of the innings to be able to clear the front leg and find the boundary with Phillips and Bracewell well suited at 6 and 7 to do that in the short form game.
We don't want Conway to do it he bats at a good pace anyway and we need him to bat through deep as he can.
So I see why we are persisting with Allen he stands out as the power hitter who can open.
I think he is now stuck between all out aggression 20/20 style and dailing it back a bit for ODIs.
We need to just work with Allen give him a game plan and hope he gets it.
He has raw hitting power fast hands and is a nice tall unit suits the opening power hitting role.
Moving a lower order hitter to open like Phillips will see him found out with 2 new white balls we get more movement longer.I don't see another in NZ maybe Chad Bowes who could open and do a job,But he is more a Conway style.
If Allen gets the pace for ODI he could be a match winner. -
@No-Quarter said in NZ tour of India:
Allen is being picked to do a job at the top of the order in both ODIs and T20s, same as what Baz was doing at the end of his career. A quickfire 40 or 50 from 20 balls to start the innings puts us ahead of the game and allows players like Conway, Kane and Latham to settle into their work without the pressure of building a run rate. There's nobody else that can do what he can in that role.
This experiment with Allen is the exact same failed thinking as Stead shoe-horning Siefert there because he was a powerful striker.
Seifert averaged 19 for that period and in a late admission had to be dropped just weeks prior to the 2021 T20 World Cup.
Stead did the same thing persisting with Munro as an ODI opener throughout 2019 WC before throwing Nicholls in at the last minute possible.
The common dominator here is that Stead has these naive preconceived fixed ideas & possesses no method or consistency in his selections whatsoever.
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@kiwi_expat said in NZ tour of India:
@No-Quarter said in NZ tour of India:
Allen is being picked to do a job at the top of the order in both ODIs and T20s, same as what Baz was doing at the end of his career. A quickfire 40 or 50 from 20 balls to start the innings puts us ahead of the game and allows players like Conway, Kane and Latham to settle into their work without the pressure of building a run rate. There's nobody else that can do what he can in that role.
This experiment with Allen is the exact same failed thinking as Stead shoe-horning Siefert there because he was a powerful striker.
Seifert averaged 19 for that period and in a late admission had to be dropped just weeks prior to the 2021 T20 World Cup.
Stead did the same thing persisting with Munro as an ODI opener through 2019 WC before throwing Nicholls in at the last minute possible.
The common dominator here is Stead has naive fixed ideas & possesses no method or consistency in his selections whatsoever.
If you understand the dynamics of Cricket teams the Captain has 80% say in selections not the Coach.In Cricket the Captain holds the power.
So it will be the Captains making those decisions on selection not Stead. -
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@nzzp said in NZ tour of India:
@Chris said in NZ tour of India:
So it will be the Captains making those decisions on selection not Stead.
In NZ? I'd agree for Australia, but do you think that cross the Ta$man?
Yes Mate it is, I do some Coaching clinics with Shane (not Bond)who lives in Qld he is the Black caps bowling coach same structure all around the world England and India are the same
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Yeah it's 100% the captain, the coach is just there to bounce ideas off. Hesson and McCullum worked well together in that regard, differing viewpoints so McCullum was always having his ideas challenged.
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@kiwi_expat I see what you are saying, but it's pretty clear Allen has a bucketload more talent than the blokes you mention. You don't hit Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins out of the attack by fluke, that's one of the GOAT fast bowling lineups of any nation.
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In terms of attacking talent. Finn Allen is, or should be, a generational talent.
Only McCullum and Ryder that I have seen from NZ look to me like they have the ability to hit/attack good bowling as he does. But, he doesn't have nearly the rounded game of those other two. Partly, I'd guess, a factor of modern pathways. he just hasn't played nearly as much longer forms as those of the past while coming up. A 50 over game is like a timeless test to him, can see he is currently pretty hopeless in his decision making in the longer form (I say, laughingly, realising I am talking about 50 over cricket ...)
The next world cup (in India) will be a runs fest compared to the surprisingly decent bowling-'dominated' 2019 world cup in England. So, a last minute fall back to a 'safe' guy like Nicholls won't get anyone very far in the tournament IMO. Young would be better, currently. But, the upside of Allen is potentially quite huge. Young should be in the team at 4 IMO anyway (let alone in this weakened tour squad where he should be 3).
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@Chris said in NZ tour of India:
@nzzp said in NZ tour of India:
@Chris said in NZ tour of India:
So it will be the Captains making those decisions on selection not Stead.
In NZ? I'd agree for Australia, but do you think that cross the Ta$man?
Yes Mate it is, I do some Coaching clinics with Shane (not Bond)who lives in Qld he is the Black caps bowling coach same structure all around the world England and India are the same
Cheers
The thing I struggle with us people(spinners) being selected and then the captain not bowling them. Either just pick a batsman, or bowl the damn spinner right?
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@nzzp said in NZ tour of India:
@Chris said in NZ tour of India:
@nzzp said in NZ tour of India:
@Chris said in NZ tour of India:
So it will be the Captains making those decisions on selection not Stead.
In NZ? I'd agree for Australia, but do you think that cross the Ta$man?
Yes Mate it is, I do some Coaching clinics with Shane (not Bond)who lives in Qld he is the Black caps bowling coach same structure all around the world England and India are the same
Cheers
The thing I struggle with us people(spinners) being selected and then the captain not bowling them. Either just pick a batsman, or bowl the damn spinner right?
Yep totally agree spinners have to bowl lots of overs to get a rhythm if you pick them bowl them.
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For Me, Back to Allen I would be saying to him pick your 3 main scoring zones on length and line if they appear in your hitting zone go hard.Anything else keep on the ground and either punch hard for 2 or 4 or work for one.
A few innings like that and his confidence and Rhythm will come back and he can expand his batting plan. -
Definitely the bowlers let the side down and agree with Chris, that there doesn't seem to be any tactical awareness of the situation and looking ot change within a game. In saying that I thought Ferguson bowled well and given I have thought he hasn't been at his best of late, I thought last nights spell was good (unlucky with wickets).
I don't have a problem with Allen and keeping him on, but I do think we have been missing a trick by not playing Young. Nicholls has to be out of luck in multiple formats (probably means he is due), but I am surprised WIll Young not touring.
