NZ v Pakistan 2022/23
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@Higgins said in NZ v Pakistan:
@MN5 Pleasing to be reminded that the stereotypical old style number 11 bunny Danny Morrison is there with an unbeaten 106 run partnership with Nathan Astle. He was not in the queue when batting talent was handed out but by god did he value his wicket dearly. Also interesting to not another tenth wicket partnership (118 runs) involving Nathan Astle once again and Chris Cairns. Presumably one of them must have been carrying an injury and reverted to being last drop?
I watched that last one ball by ball on the couch having crashed with a bunch of mates after a hard night the day before. What a great day to blob, continue drinking and witness a fighting loss.
Cairns was carrying an injury so batted at 11. It was a game they couldn’t win so Astle went nuts and got his 222, Cairns couldn’t run from memory so hit a couple himself but was definitely junior partner.
Fairly sure Graeme Thorpe got the record for fastest test double ton but Astle broke it in the same match ?
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@Chris-B said in NZ v Pakistan:
I hope someone is analyzing the reasons behind our success in the past decade and working out how to replicate it.
I wouldn't leave it to David White given his record in telecomms. Mainly, he's resulted in me not being able to watch cricket that I was quite willing to pay the market price for.
I can assure you we most definitely are not doing this.
IMO. NZ's success over the last decade has been built on 2 or 3 things.
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A golden generation (of Williamson, Southee, Boult in particular form the 2008 U19s), but also a real glut born between 1988 and 1992. I presume this is partly just chance, not something I expect a CEO or other administrators to be in control of.
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The work done by the administration prior to David White's in the mid 2000s about pitch WOFs for domestic cricket. Once this was in place NZ had a policy at domestic level of playing Plunket Shield on 'fantastic' batting pitches, this lasted for about a decade, or just over, in to the mid/late 2010s. This produced a generation of batsmen who knew how to score big runs (even if the batting was 'easy') and it produced a generation of bowlers who had to learn how to take tough wickets (through either pace, movement, height, bowling plans etc), No more Aaron Gales and Alex Taits dominating domestics. It also produced an environment where 50% of the PS teams are regularly playing a wrist spinner.
This is no longer happening. Since abut 4 years ago, there has been a policy to have more spicy domestic wickets. This is just plain retarded. There is no benefit to this. It doesn't matter if PS is boring to watch because it is batting dominated, it isn't a commercial enterprise. It needs to produce cricketers that selectors can identify test-potential talent, and be the type of pitches that the provinces want to select those types of players. Instead we have had Tait/Gale reborn in Will Wiliams dominating the PS wicket takers board. It has given him enough prominance to earn himself a county contract.
This is the biggest factor within the control of administrators and they are wilfully scrapping it. Unbelievable.
I should also acknowledge some other factors that have influenced the last 10 years:
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The South African imports. I don't see any headwinds against this from the South African environment. Unfortunate for them. I'd say Foxcroft is looking likely to be a star in the white ball formats at least (looking a bit chubby, though. Hopefully that is down to being adrift of pro environments during his covid migration dramas). Also think the Indian migration is influencing the wrist spin at domestics I mentioned earlier (Nethula fairly fully formed when he arrived, Sodhi NZ raised but Kumble as his childhood idol). When trying to replicate that 10 years, this is an area where I would expect it to outperform going forward.
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I wouldn't have said this before Bazball and England. But I think I need to give a bit more credit to McCullum's influence in the 'attitude change' some where around 2014 that saw NZ cricketers garner more self belief. Previously I gave it more to the 'golden generation'.
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TL:DR
There are a few factors, but the one thing the administrators are in control of, that was wildly successful ... they are reversing.
It's amazing how long a really mediocre administration have been in charge. Riding on the coat-tails of others groundwork. They will leave, likely, just as the unravelling of the previous good work starts to bear its rotten fruit. Their CVs will have them looking like genuises.
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@Rapido said in NZ v Pakistan:
Since abut 4 years ago, there has been a policy to have more spicy domestic wickets. This is just plain retarded. There is no benefit to this.
What was their logic for doing this? They must have thought there was a benefit?
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@Duluth said in NZ v Pakistan:
@Rapido said in NZ v Pakistan:
Since abut 4 years ago, there has been a policy to have more spicy domestic wickets. This is just plain retarded. There is no benefit to this.
What was their logic for doing this? They must have thought there was a benefit?
Their logic was that the 'batting was too easy'.
That was it.
It was correct. But is also 'wrong'.
Something has to be 'too easy'. And people smarter than our current mob correctly idenitified that easy batting conditions produces the most prepared test cricketers in all disciplines (batting, seam/spin bowling).
This was about the time that we started producing those 'green roads' for our home tests. Probably they wanted to produce domestic wickets that more closely matched our test wickets that we were now rolling out.
But funnily enough. Our players raised on the decade of domestic roads were perfectly well adept at playing on those test match 'green roads' that spooked the (usually Asian) tourists.
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As an anecdote of one.
Think back to 2016 when McCullum retired. There was a battle on between Henry Nicholls and Will Young to see who replaced him at number 5.
Young looked the by far more talented, but had a Fleming-esque record at domestic level of not converting his 50s to hundreds. Nicholls was the more ugly duckling - but seemed to have got to the stage in his career where he knew how to build an innings. Nicholls got the nod (and was fantastic at test level for the next 4 years or so).
If we were playing on 1990s green mambas. Will Young''s pretty 70s on a green crap shoot would have got him in the test team ahead of Nicholls IMO, who would also probably have been scoring less 100s.
It took Young a couple more years.
Now, I'm in team Young ahead of team Nicholls. But back in 2016 we had a domestic set up that correctly identified that better prepared player at that time of their careers. I'd no longer have the same confidence in the system.
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@Duluth said in NZ v Pakistan:
Was it just trying to make 1st class matches entertaining? I doubt there will ever be significant interest in 1st class cricket in this country
Consistently more players than spectators….that’s not a new thing. The amount of times I’ve gone past the basin to see guys playing in front of two old blokes and a dog is depressing ( but then it’s not like I can be fucked watching for long periods either )
Such a far cry from county cricket in its pomp.
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those spicy green domestic decks of days gone by also produced our generation upon generation of "all-rounders" for two reasons
fuck only being a batsman when you could get absolutely sawn off by balls moving sideways
military medium wicket to wicket is good bowling when the ball is moving all over the shop.
interesting posts @Rapido
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@MN5 said in NZ v Pakistan:
Test matches | Partnership records | Highest partnership for the tenth wicket | ESPNcricinfo
Find records of Highest partnership for the tenth wicket in Test matches only on ESPNcricinfo.
Slightly OT but I went to a cricket Trivia night a few years ago and one of the questions was, Which two teams played in the only test match that had two 10th wicket century partnerships? I got the question right and faster than the 3 other guys I was against (India and England)
They asked me a bonus points question to name the four players involved in those partnerships but I could only remember three - Root, Anderson and Shami. The one I missed was Kumar.
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@mariner4life said in NZ v Pakistan:
those spicy green domestic decks of days gone by also produced our generation upon generation of "all-rounders" for two reasons
fuck only being a batsman when you could get absolutely sawn off by balls moving sideways
military medium wicket to wicket is good bowling when the ball is moving all over the shop.
interesting posts @Rapido
You don't see any more on the NZ scene - batters who bowl a bit of medium pace.
If they have a second skill, they are all now either part time wicket keepers or part time spinners. (The spinners thing can be partly explained by T20 favouring dirty nude darters).
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@MN5 The Hastings / Collinge partnership was what got me into test cricket
We were 151 runs behind on the first innings when the partnership began and had just lost 7-40 odd.
We were looking down the barrel of a big deficit and probable loss, but I wasn't that interested. Every time I walked past the TV though they were still there. First Collinge got a PB then they started talking of 100 partnership, then all sorts of records were discussed highest by a number 11 and could it be - highest partnership for 11th wicket. The commentators were going on about Queen Victoria was on the throne when the existing record was established.
I became transfixed and watched over after over. In the end Colling did get the individual record and with Hastings smashed the old record. Was really disappointed when it was finally beaten a few years ago.
They managed to get us even on the first innings. NZ didn't have a bad side, but it was really a nothing test apart from Rodney Redmond's century and half century on debut and never playing another test.
But for me it was the start of a love affair with Test cricket that is now 50 years old - or will be next month
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@dogmeat said in NZ v Pakistan:
@MN5 The Hastings / Collinge partnership was what got me into test cricket
We were 151 runs behind on the first innings when the partnership began and had just lost 7-40 odd.
We were looking down the barrel of a big deficit and probable loss, but I wasn't that interested. Every time I walked past the TV though they were still there. First Collinge got a PB then they started talking of 100 partnership, then all sorts of records were discussed highest by a number 11 and could it be - highest partnership for 11th wicket. The commentators were going on about Queen Victoria was on the throne when the existing record was established.
I became transfixed and watched over after over. In the end Colling did get the individual record and with Hastings smashed the old record. Was really disappointed when it was finally beaten a few years ago.
They managed to get us even on the first innings. NZ didn't have a bad side, but it was really a nothing test apart from Rodney Redmond's century and half century on debut and never playing another test.
But for me it was the start of a love affair with Test cricket that is now 50 years old - or will be next month
I hear Collinge was a good bowler and Geoffrey Boycott struggled against him. I only remember him from highlights on a Richard Hadlee VHS I used to own. Haven’t heard about him since ( virtually all others gave interviews, appeared on Dilmah tea party etc, Collinge to my knowledge never has )
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@MN5 said in NZ v Pakistan:
@dogmeat said in NZ v Pakistan:
@MN5 The Hastings / Collinge partnership was what got me into test cricket
We were 151 runs behind on the first innings when the partnership began and had just lost 7-40 odd.
We were looking down the barrel of a big deficit and probable loss, but I wasn't that interested. Every time I walked past the TV though they were still there. First Collinge got a PB then they started talking of 100 partnership, then all sorts of records were discussed highest by a number 11 and could it be - highest partnership for 11th wicket. The commentators were going on about Queen Victoria was on the throne when the existing record was established.
I became transfixed and watched over after over. In the end Colling did get the individual record and with Hastings smashed the old record. Was really disappointed when it was finally beaten a few years ago.
They managed to get us even on the first innings. NZ didn't have a bad side, but it was really a nothing test apart from Rodney Redmond's century and half century on debut and never playing another test.
But for me it was the start of a love affair with Test cricket that is now 50 years old - or will be next month
I hear Collinge was a good bowler and Geoffrey Boycott struggled against him. I only remember him from highlights on a Richard Hadlee VHS I used to own. Haven’t heard about him since ( virtually all others gave interviews, appeared on Dilmah tea party etc, Collinge to my knowledge never has )
He was a decent Left armer ,Collinge big beefy unit a bit like a LH Merv Hughes.
I am not sure what happened to him -
@Chris said in NZ v Pakistan:
big beefy unit a bit like a LH Merv Hughes
Great - and pretty accurate description
@MN5 Collinge was NZ's leading bowler for most of the 70's
He (like almost all the NZ side) was a part time cricketer but he was strong, willing and accurate. He could get late swing where conditions favoured him.
Was NZ's leading wicket taker when he retired with about 120 at <30 so not shabby by any means. He played in NZ's first wings against both England and Oz. I don't think Boycott struggled against Collinge as much as people say, but he did him with a beautiful late inswinger to set up that Test win in 77. He then then retired. He was talked into a comeback when our pace bowler's started dropping like flies on a tour of England the next year - but probably shouldn't have.
Despite having a lot of the players that would go on to form the Howarth team we were beaten 2-0 in the ODI's and 3-0 in the tests - never really competing.
It all improved after that as I arrived in England to gee the boys on.
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@dogmeat Funnily enough the best I remember Collinge for was getting Boycott for bugger all at Basin in our frist test win against England in 70s, the day Hadlee really seemed to come on in NZ's eyes.
I think I am remembering right, just barely watched cricket back then (and still don't claim to be expert by any stretch) but remeber we got Poms out for 100 odd to win test? Someone will check it out I am sure anf tell me how wrong I am!
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From cricinfo's Ask Steven:
All of New Zealand's players in the first Test against Pakistan were over 30. How many times has this happened in Tests? asked Simon Nicholas from New Zealand
That's a good spot, as it turns out that New Zealand's team in the first Test against Pakistan in Karachi last week was only the second time a Test team had included no one under the age of 30.
The youngest player in New Zealand's team in Karachi was Ish Sodhi, who celebrated his 30th birthday on October 31. It means the "oldest youngest" player in any Test XI remains Vallance Jupp, who was 41 days older than Sodhi when he joined ten other thirtysomethings in England's team against Australia at Headingley in 1921.
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If you look at the list of people to play test cricket for NZ over the last 2 years (e.g. how cricinfo list their 'current players' in there stats sections). 21 players.
Only 2 of them are currently under 30.
28 year old Jamieson and 23 year old Ravindra.(Glenn Phillips has fallen off this list, over 2 years since he played his one test).
Will Young has also just ticked over 30, like Sodhi.
New Zealand Test matches averages batting | ESPNcricinfo
Find New Zealand cricket Test matches averages batting at ESPNcricinfo. Records and stats of New Zealand Test matches averages batting.
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And the layer under that.
Here is the NZ A team that toured India 4 months ago.
Looking at the ages of the players in the team for the first 'A' test. in batting order
30
23 (Ravindra)
30
28 (Chapman)
28
29 (C Fletcher)
30
31
32
30
28 (Duffy)(They onnly took 2 youngsters on the tour. Both 23 years olds. Ravindra and young ND fast bowler Matthew Fisher (who, encouragingly, ripped it up over there)
