The Current State of Rugby
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
Good article on Ethan De Groot from the Daily Telegraph and the England series. Makes some interesting observations on cards.
"Twenty-minute red cards are a step in the right direction. I think a lot of the common sense has gone from the game a wee bit,” De Groot says. “You see guys get tapped in the head, rolling around, then there’s a yellow card and they get up and carry on. If they get up and complain about a head knock, they should get off for a head injury assessment."
“If I were to bring a ruling in, it would be to get rid of cards completely and deal with any incident after the game. At Test level, you can see what a red card does – it ruins the game, especially if it’s early. It’s a tough one."
“We have the 20-minute red cards, which have been better. I reckon they’re a step in the right direction for Test rugby. Anything really grubby could be a full sending off, but one inch this way or that is either a red or nothing. It’s tough with falling players. The game is quick.”
Please no, or we go the way of football
Censure after you've triumphed because of transgressions isn't fair on the team which was beaten
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@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
Good article on Ethan De Groot from the Daily Telegraph and the England series. Makes some interesting observations on cards.
"Twenty-minute red cards are a step in the right direction. I think a lot of the common sense has gone from the game a wee bit,” De Groot says. “You see guys get tapped in the head, rolling around, then there’s a yellow card and they get up and carry on. If they get up and complain about a head knock, they should get off for a head injury assessment."
“If I were to bring a ruling in, it would be to get rid of cards completely and deal with any incident after the game. At Test level, you can see what a red card does – it ruins the game, especially if it’s early. It’s a tough one."
“We have the 20-minute red cards, which have been better. I reckon they’re a step in the right direction for Test rugby. Anything really grubby could be a full sending off, but one inch this way or that is either a red or nothing. It’s tough with falling players. The game is quick.”
Please no, or we go the way of football
Censure after you've triumphed because of transgressions isn't fair on the team which was beaten
The first paragraph suggests we've already gone the way with football, I don't agree with the just going to cards, but surely De Groots third suggestion of the 20 minute red cards (which we have down here) which is still a huge censure on the opposition team would be a viable option even to you NHers?
Cards are ruining the game, not in and of themselves but because of the interpretation of them which can often be baffling and guesswork. The 20 minute red card minimises their impact while still punishing the offender and their team.
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I wonder what would happen if rather than cards it was automatic points. 3 for a yellow, 7 for a red. No body leaves the field. Plus the penalty - so potentially 6/10 points or 3/7 and a good scoring opportunity.
I keep going back to what we're trying to achieve, and that's to make players more careful with how they tackle to try to reduce head impacts and ultimately CTE. Card's don't seem to be working though, and I think part of it is there's a deep seat instinct in rugby players to give up penalties rather than points.
Honestly, I don't think it's a good idea - a red card is bad, but imagine giving up a red card in the final minutes, then a try from the resulting lineout, to turn a safe 13 point margin into a 1 point loss. But I think it would be interesting to see if it was more effective at changing player behaviour, maybe in a try in the NPC or similar level competition.
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@Cyclops said in The Current State of Rugby:
I wonder what would happen if rather than cards it was automatic points. 3 for a yellow, 7 for a red. No body leaves the field. Plus the penalty - so potentially 6/10 points or 3/7 and a good scoring opportunity.
I keep going back to what we're trying to achieve, and that's to make players more careful with how they tackle to try to reduce head impacts and ultimately CTE. Card's don't seem to be working though, and I think part of it is there's a deep seat instinct in rugby players to give up penalties rather than points.
Honestly, I don't think it's a good idea - a red card is bad, but imagine giving up a red card in the final minutes, then a try from the resulting lineout, to turn a safe 13 point margin into a 1 point loss. But I think it would be interesting to see if it was more effective at changing player behaviour, maybe in a try in the NPC or similar level competition.
I remember having a conversation years ago with an old fella. It was around the time we changed to 5 point tries. The reasoning behind the change was to encourage the attacking team to go for the try rather than take the penalty. The old fella had a theory that we were looking at things the wrong way. He argued the defending team gave away penalties to stop tries being scored so we needed to punish them more when they transgressed. He wanted to see the value of a penalty kick increase, not the value of a try. He reckoned this would lead to more tries because the defending team would give away fewer penalties.
This has stayed with me ever since and the above was a long winded way of saying I kind of agree with you, especially when it comes to the yellow cards coming from repeated infringements. What if we came up with a way of punishing teams with points rather than a loss of player?
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@Crazy-Horse
I don’t mind players getting ejected from the game.But the way whole process works isn’t just stupid...it’s INSANE!
Firstly, it is very easy to get sent off now days, all it takes is an ever so slight miscalculation.
And then the dumb shit starts…
The game stops for five minutes. Thousands in the crowd, and many more watching TV, look at the screen.
The foul play is highlighted—some poor bastard getting smashed in the head. Watching in super slomo, high definition, from umpteen different angles, repeated repeated repeated.
What a way to promote the game! F’wits.
Then the ridiculous sanctions are imposed. Sanctions that have decided the sports last two world championships.
There are plenty of other ways to handle the process. Just look at what other sports do. And it’s very obvious they don’t do this. Officials still administering like its amateur sport, instead of what it is at the top level, the business of entertainment.
For example.
Ice hockey; a player gets sent to the box and his team is a man down. But as soon as the other team scores, he’s back into the game. Is that not a simple, sensible penalty?
As for players getting ejected from the game permanently. They have to be replaced. At the elite level, a team a man down cannot compete. With no competition the entertainment is pretty much over.
Just get another beer, chat to your mate, look at your phone…
And suspend the miscreant for life at the tribunal on Monday night!
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@Nepia said in The Current State of Rugby:
Cards are ruining the game, not in and of themselves but because of the interpretation of them which can often be baffling and guesswork. The 20 minute red card minimises their impact while still punishing the offender and their team.
I think 20 minute Red cards are just turd-polishing - though an improvement. There's just too many cards in the game, full stop.
Keep Red cards as they are but limit them to deliberate dangerous and foul play - e.g. kicking someone in the head, stiff-arm and deliberate spear tackles - and not for failing to lower your body enough.
Make stuff like failing to wrap your arms around the ball carrier enough a Yellow and tweak the thresholds for yellows so stuff like deliberate knock-ons are more biased towards become penalties.
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A antipodean referenced this topic on
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Nepia said in The Current State of Rugby:
Cards are ruining the game, not in and of themselves but because of the interpretation of them which can often be baffling and guesswork. The 20 minute red card minimises their impact while still punishing the offender and their team.
I think 20 minute Red cards are just turd-polishing - though an improvement. There's just too many cards in the game, full stop.
Keep Red cards as they are but limit them to deliberate dangerous and foul play - e.g. kicking someone in the head, stiff-arm and deliberate spear tackles - and not for failing to lower your body enough.
Make stuff like failing to wrap your arms around the ball carrier enough a Yellow and tweak the thresholds for yellows so stuff like deliberate knock-ons are more biased towards become penalties.
Oh yeah, I agree 100% reds should be for deliberate foul play only, I was just discussing it in terms of those options in the article.
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I was quite enjoying the France U20 game. A penalty with about 6 minutes to go needed to get in front, drama, tension....but no, TMO says "can we just go back, etc". Moment ruined. Fast forwarded to see who won after that. Fortunately I did stop just in time to see the real last minute penalty kick, and waited to see if he actually got to take the shot. He did. It went over but wasn't awarded. Then it was. At least in the end they got that right.
Point being that it is hard to get excited about a try (or anything else) when it is likely to be called back or changed.
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@Snowy said in The Current State of Rugby:
Point being that it is hard to get excited about a try (or anything else) when it is likely to be called back or changed.
Schrodinger's score. It's like in cricket - celebrate ... but you're waiting for confirmation. It sucks ... but it's the price for better decision making (generally).
I do not know how to fix this.
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It feels very different in cricket because at least you have seen what happened. In rugby it can be for something that was unnoticeable when watching it yourself (or some bullshit call by a pedantic knobhead that thinks he's watching tiddlywinks). Cricket is all in slow motion or replay anyway, the actual action is about 0.5 seconds long for the ball to get from one end of the pitch to the other, plus the few seconds after that. It is also designed to take 5 days to complete (which is why the shorter versions get progressively more shit as they get shorter).
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Reason number, i don't know, shit loads, why our rugby season structure sucks.
We have these huge gaps where absolutely nothing happens. And not in summer, in the middle of fucking winter. Rugby's main competitors are charging at the moment, League coming off Origin and running in to finals, AFL at the pointy end.
What's rugby doing? Jack shit. And won't for a couple of weeks yet. Then we'll play for a couple of weeks, then we'll have another 3 weeks off. There is just no momentum. And any casual that watches a test and thinks "oh that was pretty cool, maybe I'll watch some more" has nowhere to turn.
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@mariner4life agreed, obviously ideal would be pro competitions running all season but they powers that be could do SOMETHING
why wasnt the club comp pushed back a week or two, cant imagine it having a great influence on anything...and then have a big push for poeple to get down and watch finals
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@Kiwiwomble I think NPC pre-season starts this weekend, so you dont want club finals overlapping that with provinces likely pulling some players from teams?
But agree with @mariner4life big old gap of nothing really, more so when you consider the exhibition game last weekend too.
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@taniwharugby i guess, sounds pretty lame though "pre season" for a competition largely ignored. kind of feel those guys involved in finals could just roll in to the NPC team next week
I'd personally prefer that over another exhibition game
Thereal thing is why didn't we role straight into the RC?
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@Kiwiwomble but for the club guys, club finals and playing for thier province is the highlight, pre-season might be thier only provincial run for some?
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@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble but for the club guys, club finals and playing for thier province is the highlight, pre-season be thier only run for some?
might be right
i guess more an indictment of there is always going to be the lulls when transitioning between competitions and so it kind of sucks for those of us that follow club>NPC>Super>international
most other sports players kind of only play one of the first 3 and then maybe the last and so the competitions are designed to last the whole "season"
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@Kiwiwomble I think as @mariner4life has alluded to plenty of times, particularly about the NRL how everything is concurrent, whereas Rugby has thier seperation of comps.
Although do we usually have a gap like this prior to TRC? Does seem unusual?
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@taniwharugby i think its most sports, rugby in NZ is the only one i can think of that fits different levels at different times and has players playing in all of them
it does feel unusual....but it also feels like it slightly different every year
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Yes. Is unusual.
An AB is actually a member of 4 teams at 4 different levels club/province/super/national. And could play at every level in one season.This does not happen in any other pro football code. They play in 2 at most. Usually their club and national team.
The spanner in the works is Super Rugby. For those who dont know, it was originally a preseason comp for the PUs. And that is why it is played at the start of the season, not at the end, where you'd think it naturally would fit.
SR was controversial right from the start! It didn't include all the PUs. Organised by the Auckland/Wellington/Canterbury PUs (not the NZRU) it shut out all the others. Who were pissed off, and right to be as it turned out.
When they game went pro in 95 it was used by the establishment (led by Jock Hobbs) as an alternative to a non-establishment comp being organised (by Kerry Packer if I remember correctly).
In retrospect.....probably better off if we went with Packer. Would have had a full season Super comp, with regular national team breaks.
