Super Rugby 2023
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@Stargazer happy enough with the principle, with the scrums though, 30 sec is actually a really long time, especially if we have any re sets, will be interesting, "30 seconds of the respective marks being set" will there be 10-20 from the whistle blow to the ref actually stepping in and marking the spot
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@Stargazer I like the red card decision being made while player in sinbin too, we don't need to see the refs watching constant replays to decide between red and yellow card.. Quick look and decided it's a yellow or worse, and let the TMO decide the severeity.. Anything that stops the players having extra rests too!
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I think it should be 60 secs for conversions as well. That would stop the try-scorer kicking or throwing the ball into the crowd in celebration, and then waiting for the ball to be returned. If you want to do that fine, but your goal kicker might not be too pleased.
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@Bovidae have to say, i dont get the whole "have to use the ball the try was scored with" they should all be the same etc, kind of seems like a this contrived rule...just because
happy to have a time limit and 60 sec seems enough but just give them a ball and lets get on with it
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@Bovidae said in Super Rugby 2023:
I think it should be 60 secs for conversions as well. That would stop the try-scorer kicking or throwing the ball into the crowd in celebration, and then waiting for the ball to be returned. If you want to do that fine, but your goal kicker might not be too pleased.
It used to be 60 seconds from the kicker indicating intention (which was the usually the tee coming out) but has become 90 seconds from the try being awarded.
Those celebrations will now eat into the time and the kicker will have to crack on with things as some have worked out routines for the 60 second rule. -
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Bovidae have to say, i dont get the whole "have to use the ball the try was scored with" they should all be the same etc, kind of seems like a this contrived rule...just because
happy to have a time limit and 60 sec seems enough but just give them a ball and lets get on with it
As above the law is now 90 from scoring and using the same ball should mean urgency in getting to the mark and setting up. If you depend on a ball boy then it is hard for the ref to judge fairness and when to start the time.
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@Dan54 In principle, yes, but changing a yellow into a red gives the TMO a huge power that can seriously impact games. Thinking of the terribly biased TMOs we've seen in games in the not too distant past (especially some South African TMOs who blatantly influenced or tried to influence the outcome of games), extra care should be taken that the TMO isn't only technically good at his job, but also impartial. And no room for pedantic types.
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@Crucial make sense i guess but also pretty nit picky, there are several balls knocking about, think it would be a VERY rare occurrence for a ballkid to not be right there ready to give a kicker the ball, like we've added all this fine print to the laws trying to speed things....but its just extra complexity
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Crucial make sense i guess but also pretty nit picky, there are several balls knocking about, think it would be a VERY rare occurrence for a ballkid to not be right there ready to give a kicker the ball, like we've added all this fine print to the laws trying to speed things....but its just extra complexity
I get what you are saying but I guess that the 'same ball' part gives the ref (or time clock) certainty on when to start the countdown.
Try is awarded = clock startsUse a second ball and there is no governance on the time between the try being awarded and the start of the clock. Also kicker gets to choose where the kick is from so you'd potentially have a ball being delivered to start the clock but maybe not where the kicker wants it.
I do agree that 90 seems a long time but also think that if you are going to use a clock then the process has to be clear.
At times when a TMO is involved the kicker will effectively have 90 seconds if they pre-empt the decision. That should be cut to 60 .
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@Crucial yeah, i guess i just come from the other side, just make take the rule (60 sec from try being awarded)...and thats it work out the rest on the field, so kickers will just get use to looking for the closest ball kid as soon as a try is scored. a very simple rule and let the player work out the rest
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@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Dan54 In principle, yes, but changing a yellow into a red gives the TMO a huge power that can seriously impact games. Thinking of the terribly biased TMOs we've seen in games in the not too distant past (especially some South African TMOs who blatantly influenced or tried to influence the outcome of games), extra care should be taken that the TMO isn't only technically good at his job, but also impartial. And no room for pedantic types.
Yep I must admit I do have those doubts a little too Star, and a little bit of discomfort about it being the ref who has the final say, and this oerhaps takes it away from him a bit.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Crucial yeah, i guess i just come from the other side, just make take the rule (60 sec from try being awarded)...and thats it work out the rest on the field, so kickers will just get use to looking for the closest ball kid as soon as a try is scored. a very simple rule and let the player work out the rest
I'm just thinking through real scenarios. It would end up looking really stupid if there was a stadium countdown clock that runs out but the ref ignores it because of some mixup with a ball being made available or two balls arrive etc.
It is much clearer for the crowd, the players and viewers if the clock starts from try being awarded and the onus is on players to give the kicker the ball.
My only tweak would be that if there is a TMO involvement then the kicker has only 60 seconds. -
@Crucial fair enough, i just dont think that would happen, i just cant think that someone wouldn't find one of the several balls knocking around and give it to the kicker, and i think 99% of the time a ball kid would run straight out with one, but i know my preference for less and more simplistic laws is not a universal one so all good
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Bovidae have to say, i dont get the whole "have to use the ball the try was scored with" they should all be the same etc, kind of seems like a this contrived rule...just because
happy to have a time limit and 60 sec seems enough but just give them a ball and lets get on with it
I questioned this a while ago and someone said the rule came about following the 2003 world cup (I think) where a team (possibly England) got an advantage when they used a dry ball to make a crucial conversion. I guess using the same ball negates the advantage.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Bovidae have to say, i dont get the whole "have to use the ball the try was scored with" they should all be the same etc, kind of seems like a this contrived rule...just because
happy to have a time limit and 60 sec seems enough but just give them a ball and lets get on with it
I questioned this a while ago and someone said the rule came about following the 2003 world cup (I think) where a team (possibly England) got an advantage when they used a dry ball to make a crucial conversion. I guess using the same ball negates the advantage.
To the same 'gamesmanship' if you went down the path of @Kiwiwomble then the opportunity for 'deliberate' mucking around also opens up a can of worms.
The path of simplicity is often to have a very clear and workable rule with little risk of alteration.
The same ball rule means that there is little to no excuse for a 'lost' or 'delayed' ball. -
all fair points that make sense, to me just seem like such minors things, you can quickly dry the ball the try was scored with (i know not as much as one thats been on the sideline), both teams also have that ability so its still fair, so to create a law in response to rare instances of minor advantage seems very reactionary, id rather world rugby just stood strong..."those are the rules" rather than tweaking things when people complained someone had an advantage....yes, that dry ball was a very slight advantage in that moment...thats the game, we give the attacking team all kinds of advantages and protections
and re team gaming things....if you can prove it on camera for example, fine and ban them later rather than changing the on field rules to effect off field activities
as i say, happy to acknowledge thats just me
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I don't think any of this is changing rules. Just enforcing them.
Currently the law is 90 secs from awarding try. That covers many scenarios without having to make allowances/judgements by the ref.
Here's a very real and regular scenario.
Kicker either scores try or is caught up in scoring 'pile'. Ref awards try. 10 seconds disappears while kicker extricates themselves from pile and then more time while he walks back to mark and tee/ball arrive (tee possibly from far side of field). Catch breath and there is 60 secs left to go through routine and kick ball. None of that is time wasting and ball probably kicked with 15 secs to spare.
Now if you made it 60 secs from awarding try it is quite likely that the kicker has a very hurried routine that saves everyone 15 secs.I am as anti time wasting as anyone but I don't see that there is anything to be gained by 60 second kicks if measured from award of try unless the awarding was due to TMO.
It is far better than 60 secs from tee arriving which leaves a long gap of potential mucking around and no urgency from tee carrier, ref or player. This law puts the onus on players to get on with the game as should be the case.
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