Highlanders 2023
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@kiwi_expat said in Highlanders 2023:
@friedrugby said in Highlanders 2023:
Where to go after that? Fact is, this squad isn't very good - which we all know is true deep down, but can't help but feel was still aren't maximising what we can get out of them.
The forwards are largely dominant every week... do we lack a bit of dynamic play and X-Factor perhaps, but it isn't really an issue.
Our attack in general is just diabolical. We run at men as opposed to going into gaps, and I'd have to put that at the feet of Whiffin. Part of the issue is certainly that Hunt runs across field which slows everything down, and takes up space, but again, it isn't Hunt's fault the coaches pick him - he is trying his best.
The Chiefs will take us to task next week, as will the Brumbies... after that, will we be able to pick ourselves up to beat the Reds and Rebels? I'd think this year five wins will be needed to make the 8, so will need to win both, and it may be for the best if we don't, because honestly, I'd rather finish 9th, than finish 8th and go through the pain of getting drilled by the Chiefs in a QF.
As for next season and beyond, it is all about recruitment. We can't necessarily just clean out, because players are needed to replace them. The mail is that the Highlanders are looking longer-term, hence why they went with Lowe on a three year deal, rather than others who only wanted to sign a one-year deal. I think Super Rugby sides have become a little too systematic, and it has almost reverted back to the original model, where guys come through the region and stay put (Though now through academies of Super sides rather than NPC feeders)... it is a hard work around for the Highlanders, but hopefully Kenny Lynn can at least spark the attack next year.
Ngane Punivai, Josh Ioane, Manaaki Selby-Rickit all moved away & they aren't even making Chiefs 23.
there's guys at other teams who aren't getting minutes like Rivez Reihana, Corey Evans, Riley Higgins
meanwhile Mitch Hunt & Fetuli Paea are here starting every week.Must be something wrong with the culture if players are willing to move just to hold tackle bags at the Chiefs.
Sekby-Rickett and Punivai had off field issues to consider. Punivai with long covid and Selby-Rickett had already moved to BoP. So was closer to home with the Chiefs option. Josh Ioane was in a form slump and had been told he was behind Hunt in the pecking order. I wasn't too worried about the lose of those players. It is the inability to keep and identify players like George Bell, picking Arscott and Hastie over Noah Hotham and not getting ahead of the curve with Lio-Willie. Timoci Tavatavanawai also spent the best part of a season with the Highlanders, and has gone on to be a very good winger for MP. At the same time we signed Paea we could have gone after Aumua. But, he was peobably seen as being too risky due to his size. Josh Moorby should have been locked down. While we are starting a vottom up programme, there are classic examples of players we should have locked in to improve the results we are currently seeing.
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@SouthernMann Gatland also moved to Chiefs after being stuck behind Hunt - and ironically Ioane..
The Highlanders have essentially become a Chiefs' development team in the last couple of seasons.
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@Tim said in Highlanders 2023:
Renton is an interesting case. I suspected he was off contract. His form says he should get re-signed. I just don't think there is a loosie spot available for him next year, which is a shame.
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Time for conversations about Highlanders’ form
It is just a game but you can expect to sense a real edge around the Highlanders this week. Their playoff hopes are hanging by a thread, they are...
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@SouthernMann Unless I'm forgetting someone, Haig and Michaels are the only two new signings in the loose... and they'll replace Frizell and Lentjes?
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@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2023:
@kiwi_expat said in Highlanders 2023:
@friedrugby said in Highlanders 2023:
Where to go after that? Fact is, this squad isn't very good - which we all know is true deep down, but can't help but feel was still aren't maximising what we can get out of them.
The forwards are largely dominant every week... do we lack a bit of dynamic play and X-Factor perhaps, but it isn't really an issue.
Our attack in general is just diabolical. We run at men as opposed to going into gaps, and I'd have to put that at the feet of Whiffin. Part of the issue is certainly that Hunt runs across field which slows everything down, and takes up space, but again, it isn't Hunt's fault the coaches pick him - he is trying his best.
The Chiefs will take us to task next week, as will the Brumbies... after that, will we be able to pick ourselves up to beat the Reds and Rebels? I'd think this year five wins will be needed to make the 8, so will need to win both, and it may be for the best if we don't, because honestly, I'd rather finish 9th, than finish 8th and go through the pain of getting drilled by the Chiefs in a QF.
As for next season and beyond, it is all about recruitment. We can't necessarily just clean out, because players are needed to replace them. The mail is that the Highlanders are looking longer-term, hence why they went with Lowe on a three year deal, rather than others who only wanted to sign a one-year deal. I think Super Rugby sides have become a little too systematic, and it has almost reverted back to the original model, where guys come through the region and stay put (Though now through academies of Super sides rather than NPC feeders)... it is a hard work around for the Highlanders, but hopefully Kenny Lynn can at least spark the attack next year.
Ngane Punivai, Josh Ioane, Manaaki Selby-Rickit all moved away & they aren't even making Chiefs 23.
there's guys at other teams who aren't getting minutes like Rivez Reihana, Corey Evans, Riley Higgins
meanwhile Mitch Hunt & Fetuli Paea are here starting every week.Must be something wrong with the culture if players are willing to move just to hold tackle bags at the Chiefs.
Sekby-Rickett and Punivai had off field issues to consider. Punivai with long covid and Selby-Rickett had already moved to BoP. So was closer to home with the Chiefs option. Josh Ioane was in a form slump and had been told he was behind Hunt in the pecking order. I wasn't too worried about the lose of those players. It is the inability to keep and identify players like George Bell, picking Arscott and Hastie over Noah Hotham and not getting ahead of the curve with Lio-Willie. Timoci Tavatavanawai also spent the best part of a season with the Highlanders, and has gone on to be a very good winger for MP. At the same time we signed Paea we could have gone after Aumua. But, he was peobably seen as being too risky due to his size. Josh Moorby should have been locked down. While we are starting a vottom up programme, there are classic examples of players we should have locked in to improve the results we are currently seeing.
All largely good points, but I am a strong believer that the Highlanders big issue is not having a first five. Just as there is a good first five behind every good team, there is a poor one behind every poor team. Look at the Blues prior to Barrett, the Chiefs prior to DMac stepping up... even the Canes prior to getting Cameron this season.
No coincidence the best game the Highlanders have played in the last two years was when Gilbert ran the cutter, showing a threat to the line whilst also possessing a good kicking game. Will be a fascinating selection this week, I suspect they'll go Gilbert and TUJ in the midfield, with Burns at 10 and CGB at 15 - who was very good last week.
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I would actually say that it's time for conversations about Highlanders management.
Highlanders/Otago face some challenges that the other franchises don't and that requires some clever thinking rather than finger crossing.
Dunedin is a small place. Way smaller than other Super Franchise cities. The University environment has changed and farming in the province relies on its' youngsters getting degrees from other places in order to get finance (farming can be extremely technical these days).
The pathways from the province are difficult given terrain and travel.
These aren't excuses, they are facts that all point to the Landers being extremely lucky if they find players from within their boundries meaning that they need to attract from outside.
The obvious attraction would be success and the rewards that come with it but that has to be built.
My question is what the Highlanders/Otago management are doing about that recruitment? Are there joint ventures with local business people to top up salaries? If there is money and interest in places like Queenstown then tap into it. The Rod Drury's and Peter Theils of the area are happy to support local ventures. Why haven't the Landers found patrons like them?
That would help monetarily.
The 'zoo' is an excellent idea that has provided some atmosphere at the games but what is going to get punters in from further afield?
Is the development/ academy programme respected enough? If not, why not? -
@Crucial said in Highlanders 2023:
I would actually say that it's time for conversations about Highlanders management.
Highlanders/Otago face some challenges that the other franchises don't and that requires some clever thinking rather than finger crossing.
Dunedin is a small place. Way smaller than other Super Franchise cities. The University environment has changed and farming in the province relies on its' youngsters getting degrees from other places in order to get finance (farming can be extremely technical these days).
The pathways from the province are difficult given terrain and travel.
These aren't excuses, they are facts that all point to the Landers being extremely lucky if they find players from within their boundries meaning that they need to attract from outside.
The obvious attraction would be success and the rewards that come with it but that has to be built.
My question is what the Highlanders/Otago management are doing about that recruitment? Are there joint ventures with local business people to top up salaries? If there is money and interest in places like Queenstown then tap into it. The Rod Drury's and Peter Theils of the area are happy to support local ventures. Why haven't the Landers found patrons like them?
That would help monetarily.
The 'zoo' is an excellent idea that has provided some atmosphere at the games but what is going to get punters in from further afield?
Is the development/ academy programme respected enough? If not, why not?These things take time to fix... money isn't the issue, the Highlanders have heaps of it, and throwing money at players isn't generally a great fix, (2013 anyone) need players buying into a vision.
No doubt Landers effed up recruitment after losing 15 in 2019, and still paying the price. Squad will naturally get better over 24' and 25' because we do have a good core of young players, and hopefully that convinces some players to head down for guaranteed game time in problem positions... namely centre and wing.
All going well Millar and Faleafaga will be good 10 options, because both have the potential to play test rugby...
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@Crucial said in Highlanders 2023:
I would actually say that it's time for conversations about Highlanders management.
Highlanders/Otago face some challenges that the other franchises don't and that requires some clever thinking rather than finger crossing.
Dunedin is a small place. Way smaller than other Super Franchise cities. The University environment has changed and farming in the province relies on its' youngsters getting degrees from other places in order to get finance (farming can be extremely technical these days).
The pathways from the province are difficult given terrain and travel.
These aren't excuses, they are facts that all point to the Landers being extremely lucky if they find players from within their boundries meaning that they need to attract from outside.
The obvious attraction would be success and the rewards that come with it but that has to be built.
My question is what the Highlanders/Otago management are doing about that recruitment? Are there joint ventures with local business people to top up salaries? If there is money and interest in places like Queenstown then tap into it. The Rod Drury's and Peter Theils of the area are happy to support local ventures. Why haven't the Landers found patrons like them?
That would help monetarily.
The 'zoo' is an excellent idea that has provided some atmosphere at the games but what is going to get punters in from further afield?
Is the development/ academy programme respected enough? If not, why not?a lot of good points, i honestly think its almost impossible for us to truly thrive in the current format, might have the odd season where we shine but i just cant see Crusaders type dynasty's being formed
re investors, i think it comes down to rich people dont get or stay rich by throwing their money away and sports teams dont make money, the most obvious test case of this is Ryan Reynolds with wrexham, 3rd oldest football club in the UK (world?) so load of history, something huge to play for in promotion, city of 70k so not hugely smaller than dunedin...and the only way they've made money (maybe only broken even) is through the extra stuff like the documentary
the current model is about equality and not equity, so the highlander might receive similar support from NZR but they starting on the back foot for the reasons you've explained and probably more, we cant argue there is now a legacy of being 'the worst" NZ super team
i think the only way things even out is if the rest of the comp drops to our level more like the NPC, or at least 7-8 NZ super teams and only if we're not diluted back to southland and Otago
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@friedrugby stick hunt in there, we're going to get battered so i would rather he copped it than anyone else
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@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2023:
@Crucial said in Highlanders 2023:
I would actually say that it's time for conversations about Highlanders management.
Highlanders/Otago face some challenges that the other franchises don't and that requires some clever thinking rather than finger crossing.
Dunedin is a small place. Way smaller than other Super Franchise cities. The University environment has changed and farming in the province relies on its' youngsters getting degrees from other places in order to get finance (farming can be extremely technical these days).
The pathways from the province are difficult given terrain and travel.
These aren't excuses, they are facts that all point to the Landers being extremely lucky if they find players from within their boundries meaning that they need to attract from outside.
The obvious attraction would be success and the rewards that come with it but that has to be built.
My question is what the Highlanders/Otago management are doing about that recruitment? Are there joint ventures with local business people to top up salaries? If there is money and interest in places like Queenstown then tap into it. The Rod Drury's and Peter Theils of the area are happy to support local ventures. Why haven't the Landers found patrons like them?
That would help monetarily.
The 'zoo' is an excellent idea that has provided some atmosphere at the games but what is going to get punters in from further afield?
Is the development/ academy programme respected enough? If not, why not?a lot of good points, i honestly think its almost impossible for us to truly thrive in the current format, might have the odd season where we shine but i just cant see Crusaders type dynasty's being formed
re investors, i think it comes down to rich people dont get or stay rich by throwing their money away and sports teams dont make money, the most obvious test case of this is Ryan Reynolds with wrexham, 3rd oldest football club in the UK (world?) so load of history, something huge to play for in promotion, city of 70k so not hugely smaller than dunedin...and the only way they've made money (maybe only broken even) is through the extra stuff like the documentary
the current model is about equality and not equity, so the highlander might receive similar support from NZR but they starting on the back foot for the reasons you've explained and probably more, we cant argue there is now a legacy of being 'the worst" NZ super team
i think the only way things even out is if the rest of the comp drops to our level more like the NPC, or at least 7-8 NZ super teams and only if we're not diluted back to southland and Otago
With the investor thing I'm not talking about someone just sinking money into the balance sheet. I'm suggesting that ways be found that are mutually beneficial.
Rod Drury for example has a software company set up in Cromwell that looks for innovative solutions to problems. What if a problem identified is the logistics of regional fans to get to support the team in Dunedin. Rod's lot comes up with an app that links transport/accomodation/meals/drinks options as self packages that can be used at individual and group (eg rugby club) level with good discounts.
This is the type of thing that he does in community support. eg he recently built an app for a startup group of locals offering to move personal vehicles from one end of the Dunstan cycle trail to another.
I'm not suggesting that he is interested in helping rugby, Just using him as an example of how support can take more forms than ownership shares.
Getting a group to underwrite a game in Queenstown is another example. Look at what the NZ Open does in attracting corporates from around the world for a special event. You could do similar in a rugby sense. -
@Crucial I'll tell you how to get crowd numbers - win games... it really is that simple, if the Highlanders were unbeaten heading into a weekend fixture late in the season (e.g Not this weekend which is duck shooting), I'd fairly confidently say the crowd would be around 18k, which is very good.
I know myself, I don't really want to go, because I know we will lose (though I'm going to anyway.)
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@friedrugby said in Highlanders 2023:
@Crucial I'll tell you how to get crowd numbers - win games... it really is that simple, if the Highlanders were unbeaten heading into a weekend fixture late in the season (e.g Not this weekend which is duck shooting), I'd fairly confidently say the crowd would be around 18k, which is very good.
I know myself, I don't really want to go, because I know we will lose (though I'm going to anyway.)
thats the problem though, the truly great clubs build supporter bases that go win or lose...not fair weather fans, carlton in the AFL had over 100k members whilst wooden spooners
concentrating on just winning is how we end up with 2013 and trying to buy in a couple of AB's...
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@friedrugby said in Highlanders 2023:
@Crucial I'll tell you how to get crowd numbers - win games... it really is that simple, if the Highlanders were unbeaten heading into a weekend fixture late in the season (e.g Not this weekend which is duck shooting), I'd fairly confidently say the crowd would be around 18k, which is very good.
I know myself, I don't really want to go, because I know we will lose (though I'm going to anyway.)
Of course that happens. We all know that there are lots like yourself plus fairweather punters.
The trick comes when the team isn't winning and you are trying to avoid a downward spiral of public and player interest. How do you keep engagement when a team is rebuilding? You can't rely on being winners all the time. For every winner there is a loser so logic tells me that over time relying on winning is stupid.
Look at other big sports comps that have underperforming teams. Some even market themselves on being underdog battlers FFS.
I have often supported teams that are in a category of 'we may not always win but you will get entertained'. -
@Crucial The Highlanders simply aren't entertaining though... perhaps I was a bit extreme, but unless you are a true diehard fan, who wants to go watch their home team get pummeled, playing drab rugby.
You don't have to win every week, sure, but you've got to show the fans something... that game against the Canes was shocking, and it has been backed up with a shocker of a trip to Aus.
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@friedrugby thats what i think rugby needs to work out, why do +40k afl fans go week in week out even if their team is rubbish...maybe not the same numbers but similar in football in the UK, thousands will go home and away spending hours and hundred of pounds going around the country
It what fans of other sports do, go to the pub at lunch time, catch up with mates, go to the game, its a whole day thing....NZ rugby fans just seems to go "meh...too hard"
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@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2023:
@friedrugby thats what i think rugby needs to work out, why do +40k afl fans go week in week out even if their team is rubbish...maybe not the same numbers but similar in football in the UK, thousands will go home and away spending hours and hundred of pounds going around the country
It what fans of other sports do, go to the pub at lunch time, catch up with mates, go to the game, its a whole day thing....NZ rugby fans just seems to go "meh...too hard"
Yep. Fan engagement. You actually want fans getting together and bitching about how shit the team is.
That's what I was implying. The management thinking needs to find innovative ways to engage the fans.
