Chiefs vs Crusaders
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@old-samurai-jack said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Huge choke from the Chiefs
Seriously though, the biggest thing I got from this game is the "learnings" the coaching staff of the Crusaders got from the first game against the Chiefs. The things the Crusaders had obviously worked on was obvious. They didn't attack the breakdown in the first game, this game the adjustment was really obvious. The point I am making, is why don't we see this kind of progression in the ABs?A bit unfair. This was one game. We often see, even with Fozzie’s coaching, the ABs change things against a team second time around to good effect.
Being able to change during a game is the thing I would like to see.
Chiefs did that in game one but kept banging their heads against the wall this time.
Definitely a difference in the way that the Saders attacked the breakdown and they also caught the Chiefs with a poor night in that area.
Yep, looking forward to game three if we get one. Hopefully that time Gatland isn’t in the coaches seat.
We were well outplayed this week and the Saders deserved the win. -
However (you knew there was a however coming
), we also need to beat the ref. Saders seem to be judged to different tolerance levels. This isn’t a moan, it is a fact. You can argue that they have earned that over years but if I had the time and desire to go over the game with a stopwatch and comparative eyeI am pretty certain that I would find that on average turnovers are called very quickly when Sader hands are dangling into the tackle area while opposition players are left longer and once cleaned or partially cleaned, it is waved away.
One appalling ref attitude last night was the professional foul from Mounga. Cane questioned why such a deliberate penalty was waved away as any old penalty offence and was told that it was because the act was in their own half. WTAF? It killed an obvious counter attack opportunity (which is why it was done) and besides that was totally against the spirit of the game. At the very least Mounga deserved admonishing and the team placed on a warning for deliberate penalty offences. It smacked of tolerance for how they play. -
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
However (you knew there was a however coming
), we also need to beat the ref. Saders seem to be judged to different tolerance levels. This isn’t a moan, it is a fact. You can argue that they have earned that over years but if I had the time and desire to go over the game with a stopwatch and comparative eyeI am pretty certain that I would find that on average turnovers are called very quickly when Sader hands are dangling into the tackle area while opposition players are left longer and once cleaned or partially cleaned, it is waved away.
One appalling ref attitude last night was the professional foul from Mounga. Cane questioned why such a deliberate penalty was waved away as any old penalty offence and was told that it was because the act was in their own half. WTAF? It killed an obvious counter attack opportunity (which is why it was done) and besides that was totally against the spirit of the game. At the very least Mounga deserved admonishing and the team placed on a warning for deliberate penalty offences. It smacked of tolerance for how they play.Oh dear. On the MP vs Canes thread you said I was stretching the truth when I called Barrett out for missing touch twice. But that was a stone cold fact. And now you claim it to be a fact that the Crusaders are refereed to a different standard, which is 100% subjective unless you're prepared to "go over the game with a comparitive eye and a stopwatch" and actually find some evidence to support your wild claim.
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@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
However (you knew there was a however coming
), we also need to beat the ref. Saders seem to be judged to different tolerance levels. This isn’t a moan, it is a fact. You can argue that they have earned that over years but if I had the time and desire to go over the game with a stopwatch and comparative eyeI am pretty certain that I would find that on average turnovers are called very quickly when Sader hands are dangling into the tackle area while opposition players are left longer and once cleaned or partially cleaned, it is waved away.
One appalling ref attitude last night was the professional foul from Mounga. Cane questioned why such a deliberate penalty was waved away as any old penalty offence and was told that it was because the act was in their own half. WTAF? It killed an obvious counter attack opportunity (which is why it was done) and besides that was totally against the spirit of the game. At the very least Mounga deserved admonishing and the team placed on a warning for deliberate penalty offences. It smacked of tolerance for how they play.Oh dear. On the MP vs Canes thread you said I was stretching the truth when I called Barrett out for missing touch twice. But that was a stone cold fact. And now you claim it to be a fact that the Crusaders are refereed to a different standard, which is 100% subjective unless you're prepared to "go over the game with a comparitive eye and a stopwatch" and actually find some evidence to support your wild claim.
Yeah that comment of “The Crusaders are referred to a different standard”
Sounds like Sour grapes to me.
I think if someone goes through every game the Crusaders have played,they have been penalised a lot more than any other team, for no other reason than they get over refereed.
Some people will say that’s because they are cynical,every team is cynical that’s Rugby you play to the limit of the law,that’s what made McCaw great, that is just smart.
other teams are not punished as much for it. -
@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
However (you knew there was a however coming
), we also need to beat the ref. Saders seem to be judged to different tolerance levels. This isn’t a moan, it is a fact. You can argue that they have earned that over years but if I had the time and desire to go over the game with a stopwatch and comparative eyeI am pretty certain that I would find that on average turnovers are called very quickly when Sader hands are dangling into the tackle area while opposition players are left longer and once cleaned or partially cleaned, it is waved away.
One appalling ref attitude last night was the professional foul from Mounga. Cane questioned why such a deliberate penalty was waved away as any old penalty offence and was told that it was because the act was in their own half. WTAF? It killed an obvious counter attack opportunity (which is why it was done) and besides that was totally against the spirit of the game. At the very least Mounga deserved admonishing and the team placed on a warning for deliberate penalty offences. It smacked of tolerance for how they play.Oh dear. On the MP vs Canes thread you said I was stretching the truth when I called Barrett out for missing touch twice. But that was a stone cold fact. And now you claim it to be a fact that the Crusaders are refereed to a different standard, which is 100% subjective unless you're prepared to "go over the game with a comparitive eye and a stopwatch" and actually find some evidence to support your wild claim.
Thing is that the evidence has mounted for years much like McCaws invisibility cloak that annoyed overseas fans but we all chuckled because it was true.
It’s a human nature thing by the refs. I’m not claiming some kind of conspiracy and totally accept that it is part of sport and how a champion team is perceived and/or treated. Plenty of examples in other sports. Sometimes it even works in reverse as officials over reach to treat them harder.Rather than pointing to individual instances it is a weight of evidence over time and I’m not claiming they get the rub of the green every time. There is definitely an unconscious bias in play and that’s all I am saying that opponents have to overcome (alongside playing very well)
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@dan54 said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@stag said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Cane convincingly outplayed by Christie again. I’d say that Christie would be a shoe in for the All Blacks, but Foster………
Really?? I think you need to watch game again, I agree Christie had a blinder, but Cane had a pearler too, playing how I want a 7 to play at test level. Just watch how incredibly quick he is off ground after a tackle etc, and how good his defence is. I not in anyway taking anything away from Christie who reminds me of Matt Todd, will die for the jersey you think, and part of a pretty good loose forward trio, but not someone who screams test player to me. Papalií is also more of a test type player I think.
I'd also like to see Christie play a few games in a row at this standard. As I noted earlier this match was a leap ahead for him.
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@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Rather than pointing to individual instances it is a weight of evidence over time and I’m not claiming they get the rub of the green every time. There is definitely an unconscious bias in play and that’s all I am saying that opponents have to overcome (alongside playing very well)
What is this waffle? Total bollocks. The Crusaders are just better.
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@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Rather than pointing to individual instances it is a weight of evidence over time and I’m not claiming they get the rub of the green every time. There is definitely an unconscious bias in play and that’s all I am saying that opponents have to overcome (alongside playing very well)
Yes, I believe there is an unconscious bias. When we watch our respective teams it always seems the decisions go against them, the ref is unfairly scrutinizing them, they never get the rub of the green, etc. It is a natural perspective you have as a fan, which is not bad (cos it is fun yelling at the screen, right?) but the problem is a lack of awareness of your own bias.
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@chris said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@toddy said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
WTF was Leicester doing there. Really bad read on defence.
That was Fihaki defending at Centre who came in Leicester was defending at first five with Mounga on the wing .
I'll have to look when I get home, but I remember the number 13 shirt jamming in and leaving the gap for Nankivell to stroll in untouched
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@machpants said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@chris said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@toddy said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
WTF was Leicester doing there. Really bad read on defence.
That was Fihaki defending at Centre who came in Leicester was defending at first five with Mounga on the wing .
I'll have to look when I get home, but I remember the number 13 shirt jamming in and leaving the gap for Nankivell to stroll in untouched
No it was Fihaki, 13 came across in cover from First Five.
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@machpants said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@chris said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@toddy said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
WTF was Leicester doing there. Really bad read on defence.
That was Fihaki defending at Centre who came in Leicester was defending at first five with Mounga on the wing .
I'll have to look when I get home, but I remember the number 13 shirt jamming in and leaving the gap for Nankivell to stroll in untouched
I thought the same. Deliberately looked at the replay to see how Nankivell managed to stroll in.
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@frank said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Rather than pointing to individual instances it is a weight of evidence over time and I’m not claiming they get the rub of the green every time. There is definitely an unconscious bias in play and that’s all I am saying that opponents have to overcome (alongside playing very well)
What is this waffle? Total bollocks. The Crusaders are just better.
As usual posters miss the point entirely. I said they were better. I said they totally deserved the win.
There’s zero sour grapes on my part at all.
I’m discussing an aspect of sport where champion teams get lots of little decisions go their way which means that challengers need to overcome that aspect.
I’m not blaming the refs or the team. It’s a fact of sporting life. If you can’t see that you obviously never watched the ABs through their dominant periods with both eyes open.
I only brought it up in the context of pointing at the Chiefs to say that they can’t just match a champion side they have to be much better.
They were just that in game one and nowhere near that in game two. -
While I am not conceding the Saders get the rub of the green with refs 😀, @Crucial is right. Champion teams and Champion individuals do benefit. For example, LeBron James is often referenced on here for getting calls going his way because of who he is.
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@machpants said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@chris said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@toddy said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
WTF was Leicester doing there. Really bad read on defence.
That was Fihaki defending at Centre who came in Leicester was defending at first five with Mounga on the wing .
I'll have to look when I get home, but I remember the number 13 shirt jamming in and leaving the gap for Nankivell to stroll in untouched
Was 14. I thought it was Leicester at the time.
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@shark said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
@crucial said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
Too many mistakes tonight.
I said before the game it would be a battle of the coaches. Razor did well with tactics and we got Gatland to get his losing record going again.
The Crusaders cleaning up the penalties was the biggest difference from last week.
A coach who actually identifies problems and solves them... imagine that Fozzie?
Born from a much improved approach at the breakdown. A couple of their tries were born from lightning quick ball, which you just don't get against the Chiefs very often. They were first to the ruck on defence and on attack, even on the kick chase, they were able to get over the ball and then attack. They made a muck. The Chiefs defended hard and attacked with intent yet they couldn't hold onto the ball for more then five rucks. Razor implemented his gameplan to perfection tonight.
Crusaders missing Whitelock, Matera, Goodhue, McAllister, Ennor, Moody & others executed a very comprehensive win.
Well done Razor. Overtook Blackadder's wins as coach today after just 6 seasons. 87% win record - 23 higher than Blackadder & 14 higher than Robbie Deans (of whom had considerably stronger Crusader squads at their disposal including multiple GOAT's and all time franchise legends).
Very debatable point about which coaches had the strongest squads. Deans certainly had the deepest squads, most frontline AB talent, a good dose of razzle dazzle and a couple of the best ever guys in their positions. Blackadder inherited much of that but after 2011 had very little outside back talent most seasons and on top of that he was a terrible backline selector so we saw some shocking combinations.
2009:
Wyatt Crockett (Canterbury), Ben Franks ( Ta$man), Owen Franks (Canterbury), Bronson Murray (Canterbury), Corey Flynn (Canterbury), Jason Macdonald (Otago) (D), Brad Thorn ( Ta$man), Ross Filipo (Canterbury), Isaac Ross (Canterbury), Michael Paterson (Canterbury), Kieran Read (Canterbury), Richie McCaw (Canterbury), George Whitelock (Canterbury), Thomas Waldrom (Canterbury), Nasi Manu (Canterbury), Jonathan Poff ( Ta$man), Andy Ellis (Canterbury), Kahn Fotuali’I ( Ta$man), Colin Slade (Canterbury), Stephen Brett (Canterbury), Tim Bateman (Canterbury), Ryan Crotty (Canterbury), Casey Laulala (Canterbury), Adam Whitelock (Canterbury), Kade Poki ( Ta$man), Sean Maitland (Canterbury), Jared Payne (Canterbury)*, Leon MacDonald (Canterbury).
2010:
Wyatt Crockett, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Peter Borlase**, Corey Flynn, Ti'i Paulo***, Brad Thorn, Isaac Ross, Chris Jack***, Sam Whitelock**, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, George Whitelock, Jonathan Poff, Thomas Waldrom, Andy Ellis, Kahn Fotuali'i, Daniel Carter***, Daniel Bowden (D), Ryan Crotty, Tim Bateman, Robert Fruean**, Adam Whitelock, Sean Maitland, Kade Poki, Zac Guildford, Colin Slade, Jared Payne.
2011:
Matt Berquist,
Tyler Bleyendaal,
Dan Carter,
Wyatt Crockett,
Ryan Crotty,
Israel Dagg,
Andy Ellis,
Corey Flynn,
Kahn Fotuali’I,
Ben Franks,
Owen Franks,
Robbie Fruean,
Zac Guildford,
David Hall,
Willi Heinz,
Chris Jack,
Quentin MacDonald,
Sean Maitland,
Tom Marshall,
Richie McCaw,
Andrew Olorenshaw,
Jonathan Poff,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Brad Thorn,
Matt Todd,
Joe Wheeler,
Adam Whitelock,
George Whitelock,
Sam Whitelock,
Sonny Bill Williams.2012:
Richie McCaw
Nick Barrett
Tyler Bleyendaal
Dan Carter
Wyatt Crockett
Ryan Crotty
Israel Dagg
Tom Donnelly
Andrew Ellis
Corey Flynn
Ben Franks
Owen Franks
Robbie Fruean
Ben Funnell
Zac Guildford
Willi Heinz
Ross Kennedy
Quentin MacDonald
Sean Maitland
Tom Marshall
Patrick Osborne
Kieran Read
Luke Romano
Tom Taylor
Matt Todd
Joe Wheeler
Adam Whitelock
George Whitelock
Luke Whitelock
Sam Whitelock2013:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Dan Carter ,
Shane Christie ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Tom Donnelly ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Robbie Fruean ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Tom Marshall ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Kieran Read,
Luke Romano,
Jeremy Su’a,
Jordan Taufua,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou ,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock.2014:
Dominic Bird ,
Tyler Bleyendaal ,
Daniel Carter ,
Wyatt Crockett ,
Ryan Crotty ,
Israel Dagg ,
Mitchell Drummond ,
Andy Ellis ,
Corey Flynn ,
Owen Franks ,
Ben Funnell ,
Zac Guildford ,
Willi Heinz ,
Nepo Laulala ,
Rey Lee-Lo ,
Richie McCaw ,
Johnny McNicholl ,
Joe Moody ,
Nemani Nadolo ,
Tim Perry ,
Kieran Read ,
Luke Romano ,
Colin Slade ,
Jordan Taufua ,
Codie Taylor,
Tom Taylor,
Matt Todd ,
Jimmy Tupou,
Adam Whitelock ,
George Whitelock ,
Luke Whitelock ,
Sam Whitelock2015:
Forwards:
Ben Funnell
Codie Taylor
Ged Robinson
Wyatt Crockett
Owen Franks
Nepo Laulala
Joe Moody
Tim Perry
Luke Romano
Sam Whitelock
Domninic Bird
Jimmy Tupou
Scott Barrett
Richie McCaw
Kieran Read
Jordan Taufua
Matt Todd
Luke Whitelock.Backs:
Andy Ellis
Willi Heinz
Mitchell Drummond
Daniel Carter
Tom Taylor
Colin Slade
Ryan Crotty
Robbie Fruean
Kieran Fonotia
Johnny McNicholl
Joni Macilai
Nafi Tuitavake
Nemani Nadolo
Israel DaggBlackadder certainly had the stronger and more depth-laden forward packs, with essentially all of his All Black forwards and backs at the absolute peak of their playing careers (think Laulala, Dagg, Crotty, Read, Thorn, Jack, McCaw, Flynn, Ellis, Carter, Slade, Whitelock, Taylor, Romano, Bird, O.Franks, B.Franks, Crockett, Moody, Todd, etc.. and other internationals in their prime like a 137kg winger Nandolo, Kahn Fotuali'i, Sean Maitland, etc.. Robbie Fruean, Zac Gilford, SBW, Jared Payne.
Blackadder had far heavier backlines & forward packs than Razor, they should've absolutely smothered opposition sides, especially defensively. The weight difference compared to the current side is enormous.
The players left over that Razor did inherit in 2017 were getting past their best (Romano, Whitelock, Franks, Read, Crockett, Taylor, Funnell, Moody, Todd, Dagg, etc..) and by 2019 were well into their early or mid-30's. And that 2017 backline was the green AF, Mo'unga, Havili, Goodhue, Bridge, Hunt etc.. all babies and no X-factor & power in that backline except for Tamanivalu, while Dagg was 100 years old by then, and Hall & Havili were known as pretty average players at that point of time. He certainly extracted a lot more from his cattle than he's given credit for.
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Thought Grace and Christie and Blackadder were sensational last night. Barrett also looked like a good rest had done him a lot of good. Game was probably won at the breakdown with the number of turnovers and penalties won there. Nankivell for the Chiefs looked dangerous every time he got the ball.
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For the life of me I cannot recall Jonathan Poff
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@nevorian said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
For the life of me I cannot recall Jonathan Poff
Maori bogan looking dude from Ta$man.
Re: The differences between squads.
I don't think you can compare current with past squads as we have no idea where a player is in their life cycle. We can't really know until all the teams are in the past.
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@crazy-horse said in Chiefs vs Crusaders:
While I am not conceding the Saders get the rub of the green with refs 😀, @Crucial is right. Champion teams and Champion individuals do benefit. For example, LeBron James is often referenced on here for getting calls going his way because of who he is.
I might cop some flack for this from the Village of the Damned but after a partial rewatch (I have reports I need to write for an Academic Board so I'm procrastinating) I do think the calls went the Crusaders way last night and I do think Razor made an astute tactical decision that capitalised on it.
Firstly, in the second half there were 3 rucks in about 2 minutes where first Nankivell, then Ah Koi, and then Nankivell again went for the ball, the Crusaders held it and it was play on. These were no different than what Christie was getting rewarded for. (Not sure how often it was happening in the rest of the game as I just remembered noticing it last night so went back to it). I think this is the champion team benefitting as you and @Crucial say.
To the coaching. In the first 20 minutes at lots of rucks a Crusaders player went for the ball, and dived forward for it, so that even if they didn't get the ball they spilling over past the ruck and were getting in the way of the Chiefs clearance. I think this was a masterstroke by Razor as it tested the ref, the ref did nothing about it, so therefore the rucks became a free for all. The Crusaders adjusted to this and the Chiefs didn't and regularly didn't get enough numbers over the ball. As a Chiefs fan obviously this pisses me off, but I think it's great coaching by Razor.
