New Zealand under 20

bobily

I'm not sure what we take away from that. This has shown that we need to have props that able to scrummage well, first and foremost... yet we knew that from 2012 and 2013. It also showed that it might be an idea to pick our best team, regardless of their age... yet we knew that from 2012. I don't think that these factors are what lost us this tournament, but they certainly don't help.
 
During the first few years of the JRWC, teams were poorly coached and our backs had all the time in the world, so we could just run rings around them. However, there isn't that space anymore, and the defenses are rushing up, cutting down our options. We've put much more of a focus on conditioning recently, with Robertson trying to put an extra few kgs on all his forwards. And I think this is largely a good move, and has been positive. We can now chuck the ball to a forward, who drives the ball forward, and (sometimes) makes ground. 
However, we don't really seem to be able to do much beyond this, besides giving the backs the ball and just hoping for the best, in the face of a strong defense. It doesn't seem that we are able to build up pressure on attack, phase after phase, unless someone makes a break from broken play. The fact that we are under pressure at every scrum, definitely isn't helping in keeping the pressure on the opposing team.
 
If we're under pressure, I'd like to see us try kicking in behind the other team more often (especially when things are that wet). I'm not saying we don't want to be running with the ball, but when we're under pressure in the rain, it might just be an idea to settle things down a bit. We have players who can kick well (Perofeta, Barrett), and we can put pressure back on the other team with a good chase (just like when Nock kicked and Barrett followed it up and put a big hit on). We have a bit of pace too, and if players like Barrett, Tuitama and Emerson (who should've been picked - did they even give Leger a shot?) can chase hard, we might even be able to get the ball back (particularly if they mix the kicking up a bit, with a few grubbers/chips in behind the attack if they're rushing forward).
 
Another tactic that the All Blacks often use is they stand up in the tackle and get the arms free for an offload. If the supporting player gets the ball past the line of defense, then it is generally pretty hard to stop. I don't know if this team had anyone available who could stand up effectively in the tackle, and offload, but it would probably pay to get them at least trying. They are going to want to make the ABs in a few years, and they'll likely be expected to be able to do this. I guess this is where a stronger midfield might have been useful.
 
As mentioned before, the selections are a bit baffling at times. The coaches would've known we were playing in England, so the decisions to pick props more based on their running ability is a bit bizarre. We didn't even get to see some of our backs with a bit of space, let alone the forwards. It is possible that they thought these guys are more likely to make the All Blacks in the future, though, so picked them for their own development (though many of the props we've picked in the past who have struggled to hold up a scrum haven't even made it to ITM Cup level, yet). There are also the non-selections of the likes of Emerson, Umaga-Jensen and I'd like to throw in Apikotoa too, who has played prop for Wellington, and would likely have been a heck of a lot better than Fidow.
 
For next year, I'd like to see the best team selected, regardless of age. I'd like to see props picked primarily for their scrummaging ability (let's hope Fidow can improve here, because if he does he will be a handful for the opposition), and I'd like to see our team play to the conditions, and handle pressure a lot better, as well as putting pressure back on to the opposing side.
The following players have been involved at some point this year, and are available again next year.
 
1.Pouri Rakete-Stones (not sure if he plays loosehead) 
2.Asafa Aumua 
3.Alex Fidow 
4.Isaia Walker-Leawere 
5.Sam Caird 
6.Luke Jacobson 
7.Dalton Papali'i 
8.Marino Mikaele-Tu'u 
9.Ere Enari 
10.Stephen Perofeta/Orbyn Leger/Josh McKay 
11. 
12.Jordie Barrett 
13. 
14. 
15.Peter Umaga-Jensen
 
When you add the likes of Sevu Reece (wing - played well for Waikato in their first Ranfurly Shield match), Rieko Ioane (unless he is with the All Blacks), Thomas Umaga-Jensen (midfield), Sione Asi (a big, solid prop) and Samisoni Taukei'aho (hooker - came off the bench for Waikato in their RS game) then I think there is good reason to feel a lot more positive about next year's squad.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="588472" data-time="1466026926">
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Is it nepotism or is it about this "succession plan" and senior players from the glory days?
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I think it's become about Riach and his "succession plan" 
 
Since hearing the news about Schmidt applying and Robertson being the players choice I haven't heard anything else to be honest. But a couple of media reports have mentioned Fatson as having the inside running, that worries me a lot.
 
I've heard Tabai described as "nice but dim" by guys that know him.
 
 
My choice would be Schmidt followed by Cotter, those other blokes as assistants

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="588462" data-time="1466026238">
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I've never rated Robertson, can hardly string a sentence together.
 
Never sighted at club rugby (too busy surfing probably), preferring to pick his Canterbury sides almost exclusively from Lincoln, Christchurch and Old Boys.
 
I stand by my source that Schmidt has applied for the crusaders job, but I still worry about Riach picking Fatson or Robertson. Mainly so he can point to his "succession plan" and doesn't appear to be admitting to failure. Hopefully the board of directors has more sense than that (although I doubt it)
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What do you think of Dave Hewett?
 
He interviews well - certainly sounds a lot smarter than Razor. Seems to be able to put together a good forward pack. He's definitely applied, I heard him say so on the radio.

Bovidae

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="588462" data-time="1466026238">
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I've never rated Robertson, can hardly string a sentence together.
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Yeah, he comes across as a bogan surfer from the Mount - which is exactly what he is.
 
I describe the Crusaders coaching succession plan as incestuous. While it has been successful, an outside voice wouldn't hurt.

Bovidae

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="588446" data-time="1466023766">
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The rugby world just shifted slightly on its axis.
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2 NH teams and 2 SH in the semis - the same as last year. While NZ has failed to make the SFs for the first time (a failure by our standards), the big movers are Argentina, as they were only 9th in 2015.
 
NZ plays Wales again so we'll see if any changes are made.

Immenso Rapido

Well done Ireland, Wales, Saffas, maths and whoever, whatever else. 
I don't mind this result at all, all experiences are good experiences. 
I'm also ok with seeing Scott Robertson's seemingly unstoppable trajectory as a coach dented. 
I am however weary of what may happen to future scrummaging selections, or even focus, at youth level. Yes, it's eye bleeding watching young guys in black getting shunted around, but ....... Even 20 and 30 odd years ago before NZ rugby as a whole became less forwards oriented - no one ever paid much attention to who propped the NZ schoolboys or colts. They almost never made it. 
It's probably different these days, with 'pathways', maybe plenty of these guys will make it to super level. But the status quo is the tight forwards apprenticeship happens from age 20 to 25. 
But to contradict myself a bit. How impressive was that Irish loosehead. Both in the scrum and in the loose.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="588481" data-time="1466027729">
<div>
What do you think of Dave Hewett?
 
He interviews well - certainly sounds a lot smarter than Razor. Seems to be able to put together a good forward pack. He's definitely applied, I heard him say so on the radio.
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</blockquote>
 
I like Dave Hewitt. 
 
A great guy, speaks intelligently and definitely a hard worker. 
 
I hope he stays in some sort of role.

Canes4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="bobily" data-cid="588473" data-time="1466026947">
<div>
I'm not sure what we take away from that. This has shown that we need to have props that able to scrummage well, first and foremost... yet we knew that from 2012 and 2013. It also showed that it might be an idea to pick our best team, regardless of their age... yet we knew that from 2012. I don't think that these factors are what lost us this tournament, but they certainly don't help.
 
During the first few years of the JRWC, teams were poorly coached and our backs had all the time in the world, so we could just run rings around them. However, there isn't that space anymore, and the defenses are rushing up, cutting down our options. We've put much more of a focus on conditioning recently, with Robertson trying to put an extra few kgs on all his forwards. And I think this is largely a good move, and has been positive. We can now chuck the ball to a forward, who drives the ball forward, and (sometimes) makes ground. 
However, we don't really seem to be able to do much beyond this, besides giving the backs the ball and just hoping for the best, in the face of a strong defense. It doesn't seem that we are able to build up pressure on attack, phase after phase, unless someone makes a break from broken play. The fact that we are under pressure at every scrum, definitely isn't helping in keeping the pressure on the opposing team.
 
If we're under pressure, I'd like to see us try kicking in behind the other team more often (especially when things are that wet). I'm not saying we don't want to be running with the ball, but when we're under pressure in the rain, it might just be an idea to settle things down a bit. We have players who can kick well (Perofeta, Barrett), and we can put pressure back on the other team with a good chase (just like when Nock kicked and Barrett followed it up and put a big hit on). We have a bit of pace too, and if players like Barrett, Tuitama and Emerson (who should've been picked - did they even give Leger a shot?) can chase hard, we might even be able to get the ball back (particularly if they mix the kicking up a bit, with a few grubbers/chips in behind the attack if they're rushing forward).
 
Another tactic that the All Blacks often use is they stand up in the tackle and get the arms free for an offload. If the supporting player gets the ball past the line of defense, then it is generally pretty hard to stop. I don't know if this team had anyone available who could stand up effectively in the tackle, and offload, but it would probably pay to get them at least trying. They are going to want to make the ABs in a few years, and they'll likely be expected to be able to do this. I guess this is where a stronger midfield might have been useful.
 
As mentioned before, the selections are a bit baffling at times. The coaches would've known we were playing in England, so the decisions to pick props more based on their running ability is a bit bizarre. We didn't even get to see some of our backs with a bit of space, let alone the forwards. It is possible that they thought these guys are more likely to make the All Blacks in the future, though, so picked them for their own development (though many of the props we've picked in the past who have struggled to hold up a scrum haven't even made it to ITM Cup level, yet). There are also the non-selections of the likes of Emerson, Umaga-Jensen and I'd like to throw in Apikotoa too, who has played prop for Wellington, and would likely have been a heck of a lot better than Fidow.
 
For next year, I'd like to see the best team selected, regardless of age. I'd like to see props picked primarily for their scrummaging ability (let's hope Fidow can improve here, because if he does he will be a handful for the opposition), and I'd like to see our team play to the conditions, and handle pressure a lot better, as well as putting pressure back on to the opposing side.
The following players have been involved at some point this year, and are available again next year.
 
1.Pouri Rakete-Stones (not sure if he plays loosehead) 
2.Asafa Aumua 
3.Alex Fidow 
4.Isaia Walker-Leawere 
5.Sam Caird 
6.Luke Jacobson 
7.Dalton Papali'i 
8.Marino Mikaele-Tu'u 
9.Ere Enari 
10.Stephen Perofeta/Orbyn Leger/Josh McKay 
11. 
12.Jordie Barrett 
13. 
14. 
15.Peter Umaga-Jensen
 
When you add the likes of Sevu Reece (wing - played well for Waikato in their first Ranfurly Shield match), Rieko Ioane (unless he is with the All Blacks), Thomas Umaga-Jensen (midfield), Sione Asi (a big, solid prop) and Samisoni Taukei'aho (hooker - came off the bench for Waikato in their RS game) then I think there is good reason to feel a lot more positive about next year's squad.
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You could even play 9. ? 10. Barrett 11. ? 12. Thomas Umaga Jensen 13. Reiko Ioane 14. ? 15. Peter Umaga Jensen
 
A little video to get us excited for next year. :D

bobily

Personally, I quite like Perofeta. I think he is a classy player (more well-rounded than Va'a), and I think he has generally been pretty good this tournament. I also like Barrett at 12, as it means we have an extra kicker (and an extra playmaker), so he can take a bit of pressure off the 10. He can also hit it up effectively. I'd like to see:
 
10.Perofeta
11.Reece
12.Barrett
13.Umaga-Jensen, T.
14.Ioane
15.Umaga-Jensen, P.
 
I understand if people don't like the idea of Ioane on the wing. But I like the idea of having him in a bit more space and he can also be told to get involved and come in off his wing a bit.
 
Either way, we have a few different options, and they'll all look pretty deadly.

Stargazer

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="leytonandamanda" data-cid="588419" data-time="1466016864">
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Maybe last year his assistants were the making of Robertson and this year we are seeing what he is really like 
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Probably. I was just hating on Philpott, who I don't rate at all either.

bobily

I think it would've been ideal if Colin Cooper was the U20 coach. He isn't interested in a SupeRugby contract at this stage, but obviously he has been thereabouts and will have a heck of a lot of knowledge he could pass on to his assistants as they come through, as well as the players. It won't happen next year, as he'll be with the NZ Maori against the Lions, but I think it'd be really positive moving forward for the development of our players and our up-and-coming coaches to learn a bit from him.

Stargazer

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Canes4life" data-cid="588460" data-time="1466026157">
<div>
The only positive thing about us being bumbled out early is that I don't have to go through another 80 minutes watching garbage like that.
 
The skillset of that team was well below NZ standards. 
 
A few learnings from the competition:
 
Apisai shouldn't have been captain when his replacement Aumua is a far more rounded player.
 
Barrett, Mikaele Tu'u and Stevenson can hold their heads high. 
 
Our Scrum was shithouse.
 
We suck at playing in the rain, however that is no excuse.
 
Maybe a few players left out like Emerson and Umaga Jensen could have made the difference in what was a pretty ordinary backline.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Jonah Lowe has been doing very well, too. Great on defence, huge work rate, and took the few opportunities he got during the pool games. 
 
Also have to agree with the mistake of leaving certain players in NZ, Emerson in particular. What good has it done to include Trainor in the squad? Played poorly in the second game, didn't play at all in the first and third due to injury. Emerson is a try scoring machine and could have made difference. He'll be too old next year.
 
I found Apisai quite disappointing, not just as the captain. With Motu Matu'u leaving after this rugby season, I hope the Canes give Riccitelli a contract because I think he's better than Apisai. Sam Nock was a disappointment, too. So many hospital passes & kicking the ball out on the full (Stevenson and Barrett were guilty of that, too). 
 
I have been singling out the Super players in my comments because they were selected with priority in the team and apart from Stevenson, they haven't really delivered.
 
The game for 5th to 8th place will be televised. Not sure whether I'll get up early to watch it.

bobily

I'd go easy on Apisai, a little. I was disappointed with him too, but he was pretty good in last years ITM Cup and in last years U20 tournament, if I remember correctly. There could be a number of factors affecting his performance, including focusing too much on the captaincy rather than his own game.

Canes4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="bobily" data-cid="588505" data-time="1466030445">
<div>
Personally, I quite like Perofeta. I think he is a classy player (more well-rounded than Va'a), and I think he has generally been pretty good this tournament. I also like Barrett at 12, as it means we have an extra kicker (and an extra playmaker), so he can take a bit of pressure off the 10. He can also hit it up effectively. I'd like to see:
 
10.Perofeta
11.Reece
12.Barrett
13.Umaga-Jensen, T.
14.Ioane
15.Umaga-Jensen, P.
 
I understand if people don't like the idea of Ioane on the wing. But I like the idea of having him in a bit more space and he can also be told to get involved and come in off his wing a bit.
 
Either way, we have a few different options, and they'll all look pretty deadly.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That backline is deadly. Could be the best under 20 backline weve seen.

Wurzel

A pity they'll only have backfoot ball to play with as we pick another front row of x-factor players who made their name in schoolboy rugby steam-rolling scrawny 16-year-olds in 60-point drubbings.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Wurzel" data-cid="588677" data-time="1466051977">
<div>
A pity they'll only have backfoot ball to play with as we pick another front row of x-factor players who made their name in schoolboy rugby steam-rolling scrawny 16-year-olds in 60-point drubbings.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
yeah the issues have hardly been in the backs.
 
But then again, there aren't too many you tube "tribute" videos around for blokes who do the hard yards in the tight :)

Canes4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Wurzel" data-cid="588677" data-time="1466051977">
<div>
A pity they'll only have backfoot ball to play with as we pick another front row of x-factor players who made their name in schoolboy rugby steam-rolling scrawny 16-year-olds in 60-point drubbings
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Why dont we go "twenty two jump street" on everyone and pretend Owen Franks and Joe Moody are man childs who whipped through puberty. That will sure up our scrum.

Stargazer

Thinking of the future of NZ U20s, I was wondering whether the team shouldn't get more games than the two against the Aussies before they go to the JWC. The six nations countries have a clear advantage that they play more tests each year. Maybe our U20 team should play more often, too?
 
Then I suddenly remembered, that the Aussi Super Rugby teams have U20 sides as well; not sure, but I think this is the first season with a Super U20 comp in Oz. This will be benefit the future Aussi U20 team as well as the SR franchises. Shouldn't NZ have something similar? The development teams of the NZ Super franchises play a random number of games at the beginning of the season (until club rugby starts), and their squads consist of Super Rugby players of any age who haven't made it into the main squad and who need game time. So basically, these development teams are not development teams but reserve teams. It could be good for the development of young talent if the Super franchises had actual development teams for U20 players.
 
I do not know the ins and outs of the current age grade squads of SR franchises (like which age grades there are, who are in it etc), but they aren't playing in a real competition, are they? I'm not aware of a few random games they play against each other.

SammyC

I see your point, but it's kind of nice seeing these guys play for their clubs on the weekends.
 
Taking them out only further devalues an already struggling area of New Zealand rugby.

NTA

I'm of the opinion that copping a bit of a kicking from the older club guys might occasionally stand the U20 blokes in better stead.
 
But it really depends where they play club rugby.

The Silver Fern

New Zealand under 20