New Lynn knife attack
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@aucklandwarlord said in New Lynn knife attack:
@godder said in New Lynn knife attack:
@frank said in New Lynn knife attack:
@godder said in New Lynn knife attack:
@gt12 said in New Lynn knife attack:
@godder said in New Lynn knife attack:
Parliament stripped the minister of the ability to revoke refugee status (it lies now with refugee and protection officers) with the passage of the Immigration Act 2009. The old act (1987) had the ability to deport people for terrorism, but that was removed as well - I haven't read the departmental or select committee reports recently, but I think that was because it either comes under deportation for security (Governor-general can do that on recommendation of the minister) or for criminal offending.
That was dumb, it seems.
There was a highly-publicised case in the mid-2000s of a Sri Lankan girl who was deported despite her attempt to claim asylum, and later recognised by the UN as a refugee after a harrowing time, so the conclusion (I think) was that decisions about how the UN conventions apply was best left to the expert officials rather than the amateur minister.
Was she also under around the clock surveillance and considered potentially dangerous to the NZ public?
I doubt it, but there would have been others in that situation. 15 years later, now that something else has happened in the opposite direction, no doubt we'll write more bad legislation which either doesn't work or is too broad and gets misapplied later.
Out of interest, if you had to apply a solution to this sort of "radicalised non-citizen lone wolf" based on your knowledge and experience from your side of the fence (which is clearly strong and well thought out based on your above comments and answers), what would it be?
Having an enforcement background, my default is always fairly blunt-force and tends to favour the public right to safety over the rights of offenders, but I'm also cognizant and generally supportive of the rights to due process, natural justice and the inherent rights of every person within our system.
I don't even think it's with the benefit of hindsight to say that this guy was a known ticking time bomb, and it just seems wrong to me that the only avenue the Police and spooks had was to covertly follow him around 24/7.
In looking at the processes and various court documents etc. in this case, as far as I can tell he was still here because of appeals, not because of the minister, Immigration NZ and/or how the refugee system works, or the police. INZ declined his original refugee claim, and then tried to cancel his refugee status and deport him, so I don't think they could have done much more.
Deporting people before their appeals are heard is also a bad plan as shown by the Aussies (that's their approach with 501s, and it's awful for the NZers if it turns out they didn't do it). Locking everyone up in detention pending decisions is also terrible as the Aussie experience shows, so that extent is not a viable option.
We already have automatic deportation liability for a range of things, so that's already in place - the minister's role is deciding whether to cancel or suspend deportation or let it proceed, and this power is delegated to a number of high-level INZ officials, so these are usually decided by the department, not the minister (expanding that was an outcome of a review following Sroubek, as it was existing practice already - the review expanded it rather than implemented it as a new system).
So, relatively simple answers that deal with the appeals issue rather than the whole system:
- eliminate immigration appeals for certain convictions; or
- eliminate immigration appeals in cases of potential terrorism (there are various technical options, but the key definitional issues will be what is potential terrorism); or
- either or both of the above options but expedite appeals instead of eliminating them
Also resource the appeals system better (including the Immigration and Protection Tribunal /IPT) and look at the definition of who is detained pending the outcome of appeals in deportation scenarios.
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@anonymous said in New Lynn knife attack:
@crucial said in New Lynn knife attack:
Tell me whose lives it has a negative effect on.
Anyone who is at the supermarket and needs to buy a knife.
I bought a knife for cooking from the supermarket when I was at uni. Another time was while getting food for an unplanned picnic. Both of those scenarios would have been negatively impacted by this. Probably also have got a pair of scissors (which I think they also removed from sale) from there before as well.
No uni student needs 2 x knives and a pair of scissors, I'm reporting you as a potential terrorist
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@voodoo said in New Lynn knife attack:
@anonymous said in New Lynn knife attack:
@crucial said in New Lynn knife attack:
Tell me whose lives it has a negative effect on.
Anyone who is at the supermarket and needs to buy a knife.
I bought a knife for cooking from the supermarket when I was at uni. Another time was while getting food for an unplanned picnic. Both of those scenarios would have been negatively impacted by this. Probably also have got a pair of scissors (which I think they also removed from sale) from there before as well.
No uni student needs 2 x knives and a pair of scissors, I'm reporting you as a potential terrorist
I dont know, as a uni student 2x knives and a stove was very popular
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@voodoo said in New Lynn knife attack:
@anonymous said in New Lynn knife attack:
@crucial said in New Lynn knife attack:
Tell me whose lives it has a negative effect on.
Anyone who is at the supermarket and needs to buy a knife.
I bought a knife for cooking from the supermarket when I was at uni. Another time was while getting food for an unplanned picnic. Both of those scenarios would have been negatively impacted by this. Probably also have got a pair of scissors (which I think they also removed from sale) from there before as well.
No uni student needs 2 x knives and a pair of scissors, I'm reporting you as a potential terrorist
In fairness Crucial is not saying you can't buy knives. But in this case I don't know what would have stopped the perp from getting the knife at checkout then stabbing a bunch of people there
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@bayimports said in New Lynn knife attack:
@voodoo said in New Lynn knife attack:
@anonymous said in New Lynn knife attack:
@crucial said in New Lynn knife attack:
Tell me whose lives it has a negative effect on.
Anyone who is at the supermarket and needs to buy a knife.
I bought a knife for cooking from the supermarket when I was at uni. Another time was while getting food for an unplanned picnic. Both of those scenarios would have been negatively impacted by this. Probably also have got a pair of scissors (which I think they also removed from sale) from there before as well.
No uni student needs 2 x knives and a pair of scissors, I'm reporting you as a potential terrorist
I dont know, as a uni student 2x knives and a stove was very popular
I have no idea what you're talking about...
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@bayimports said in New Lynn knife attack:
@voodoo said in New Lynn knife attack:
@anonymous said in New Lynn knife attack:
@crucial said in New Lynn knife attack:
Tell me whose lives it has a negative effect on.
Anyone who is at the supermarket and needs to buy a knife.
I bought a knife for cooking from the supermarket when I was at uni. Another time was while getting food for an unplanned picnic. Both of those scenarios would have been negatively impacted by this. Probably also have got a pair of scissors (which I think they also removed from sale) from there before as well.
No uni student needs 2 x knives and a pair of scissors, I'm reporting you as a potential terrorist
I dont know, as a uni student 2x knives and a stove was very popular
Imagine being criminalised because of a free set of Ginsu steak knives...
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@canefan said in New Lynn knife attack:
@voodoo said in New Lynn knife attack:
@anonymous said in New Lynn knife attack:
@crucial said in New Lynn knife attack:
Tell me whose lives it has a negative effect on.
Anyone who is at the supermarket and needs to buy a knife.
I bought a knife for cooking from the supermarket when I was at uni. Another time was while getting food for an unplanned picnic. Both of those scenarios would have been negatively impacted by this. Probably also have got a pair of scissors (which I think they also removed from sale) from there before as well.
No uni student needs 2 x knives and a pair of scissors, I'm reporting you as a potential terrorist
In fairness Crucial is not saying you can't buy knives. But in this case I don't know what would have stopped the perp from getting the knife at checkout then stabbing a bunch of people there
This.
Consolidation of people too, so probably more efficient too.
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@kirwan said in New Lynn knife attack:
@canefan said in New Lynn knife attack:
@voodoo said in New Lynn knife attack:
@anonymous said in New Lynn knife attack:
@crucial said in New Lynn knife attack:
Tell me whose lives it has a negative effect on.
Anyone who is at the supermarket and needs to buy a knife.
I bought a knife for cooking from the supermarket when I was at uni. Another time was while getting food for an unplanned picnic. Both of those scenarios would have been negatively impacted by this. Probably also have got a pair of scissors (which I think they also removed from sale) from there before as well.
No uni student needs 2 x knives and a pair of scissors, I'm reporting you as a potential terrorist
In fairness Crucial is not saying you can't buy knives. But in this case I don't know what would have stopped the perp from getting the knife at checkout then stabbing a bunch of people there
This.
Consolidation of people too, so probably more efficient too.
All concentrating on checking out. Not looking at each other. Target rich environment in the self checkout
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So apparently it's our fault the guy was a terrorist.
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The tone of that article is quite something:
Government-led reviews will reveal the full facts around the case. But the people interviewed for this story say those enquiries also need to address a much wider question: did our justice system feed the exact ideology that it was trying to suppress in Samsudeen? And in doing so, did it lead a traumatised, isolated young man even further down the road to becoming a terrorist? āThe problem with the blunt label āterroristā is that it excludes everything else that was going on for this guy,ā says Rasheed. āIt excludes the longstanding mental health issues that were flagged not long after he arrived. It excludes his refugee background, and his own experience of terror. āThereās an old saying, āHurt people hurt peopleā. Aathill is responsible for the hurt he caused last Friday. But as a country, will we take some of the responsibility for who he became?ā
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@anonymous Mr Rasheed should explain how with a person who couldn't go anywhere, and time on his hands, they failed to deradicalize him. Perhaps it's their fault?
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@gt12 said in New Lynn knife attack:
āThereās an old saying, āHurt people hurt peopleā. Aathill is responsible for the hurt he caused last Friday. But as a country, will we take some of the responsibility for who he became?ā
No, we won't.
Fuck off. -
@frank Well, if you fail to deport the fucker, and then ignore the problem because of a fucked up system until something happens...... well yes, the country should bear some responsibility. Esp. to those hurt. I know that is not what you meant but you provided a segue for a small vent.
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Damian Grant's take on the system:
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@godder said in New Lynn knife attack:
Damian Grant's take on the system:
Iām sure thatās a comforting read for the families of his victims, and might get a few pats on the back for the politicians that failed to get the law right here.
A system that doesnāt protect the lives of its citizens over the right of someone in the process of becoming a citizen needs to fixed urgently.
We have no obligation to take risky people like this until we fix that as well. We are not responsible for the worlds ills.
We are responsible for each other however, and we have been failed here. No spin can deny that.
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@kirwan said in New Lynn knife attack:
@godder said in New Lynn knife attack:
Damian Grant's take on the system:
Iām sure thatās a comforting read for the families of his victims, and might get a few pats on the back for the politicians that failed to get the law right here.
> A system that doesnāt protect the lives of its citizens over the right of someone in the process of becoming a citizen needs to fixed urgently.
We have no obligation to take risky people like this until we fix that as well. We are not responsible for the worlds ills.
We are responsible for each other however, and we have been failed here. No spin can deny that.
This.
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Grant says IPT clearly got it wrong in accepting the claim originally, and there should obviously be an offence in the antiterrorism legislation for planning attacks, so it's not like he's suggesting those parts were good, just that he's pleased that the law as written was complied with.
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@godder said in New Lynn knife attack:
Grant says IPT clearly got it wrong in accepting the claim originally, and there should obviously be an offence in the antiterrorism legislation for planning attacks, so it's not like he's suggesting those parts were good, just that he's pleased that the law as written was complied with.
Which is not seeing the forest for the trees.