2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa

Crucial

Funny thing is that here in NZ we don't care too much about where it is hosted (in a NH/SH context). Most possibilities are in a timezone well away from optimum viewing for us so I think we accept the fact that until the next time it may become Australia's turn we will always be watching in the early hours.
 
I doubt we will see the event here again except for a co-hosting with Australia and Australia have the sense not to waste money on a bid until SA has had another turn.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554694" data-time="1453940993">
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Once again can you explain how you came to the conclusion Ireland's stadiums are creaky and old ?
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Sure, the majority of those likely to be used (according to an article in the Independent) were built between 132 and 76 years ago. About half of them have a capacity between 18,000 and 26,000, and all of the bigger ones are Gaelic & hurling stadiums, apart from Aviva which was build for rugby and soccer.
 
South Africa has 16 stadiums with a capacity between 96,000 & 40,000 (and about a dozen more between 40,000 & 25,000), about half of them rugby-purpose, the other half built for soccer. The majority of these have been built during the past 40 years, with a few only constructed during the last decade for the FIFA World Cup.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554704" data-time="1453944758">Sure, the majority of those likely to be used (according to an article in the Independent) were built between 132 and 76 years ago. About half of them have a capacity between 18,000 and 26,000, and all of the bigger ones are Gaelic & hurling stadiums, apart from Aviva which was build for rugby and soccer. 
 
South Africa has 16 stadiums with a capacity between 96,000 & 40,000 (and about a dozen more between 40,000 & 25,000), about half of them rugby-purpose, the other half built for soccer. The majority of these have been built during the past 40 years, with a few only constructed during the last decade for the FIFA World Cup. </blockquote>
 
So they've had no upgrades or renovations in those years? I find that very hard to believe

Unco

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554632" data-time="1453934756">
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You seem to forget that the first four Rugby World Cups actually featured four team pools and that they were very successful, throwing up plenty of fascinating contests. Things got complicated - and controversial - when the organizers decided to create 5-team pools at the beginning of this century.
 
I didn't compare Ireland to Samoa or Fiji? I simply wanted to know where the line would be drawn on small nation World Cups. Geographically Ireland is half the size of the South Island of NZ. In my view, that would be a massive step backward for a tournament which is growing with every edition. NZ was a minor step backward, and it's time to move on to big and better pastures.
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You seem to have quickly forgotten that that complicated and controversial structure resulted in the best RWC yet just last year and yet you want to water it down.
 
I don't even know what you're going on about in that second bit. Geographical size?! Is there a minimum distance RWC hosting countries have to have between their stadiums or something? Cause to me it looks like you're talking shit. Fact is, they've got the population, stadiums and accommodation to easily support a RWC and are right next door to the UK and France, so they'll get plenty of people visiting.

Unco

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="554703" data-time="1453943082">
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Funny thing is that here in NZ we don't care too much about where it is hosted (in a NH/SH context). Most possibilities are in a timezone well away from optimum viewing for us so I think we accept the fact that until the next time it may become Australia's turn we will always be watching in the early hours.
 
I doubt we will see the event here again except for a co-hosting with Australia and Australia have the sense not to waste money on a bid until SA has had another turn.
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Japan's only three hours behind us.
 
Argentina would also be pretty convenient for us too, as would the US/Canada (though I think they should have to prove themselves with their national comp first, if it's sustainable then that proves there's a base the RWC can build on).

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554706" data-time="1453944904">
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So they've had no upgrades or renovations in those years? I find that very hard to believe
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Most of them have at times, though few of them recently, and some of them we're going back a long way. There's no contest concerning stadia. South Africa is light years ahead

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="554708" data-time="1453945006">
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You seem to have quickly forgotten that that complicated and controversial structure resulted in the best RWC yet just last year and yet you want to water it down.
 
I don't even know what you're going on about in that second bit. Geographical size?! Is there a minimum distance RWC hosting countries have to have between their stadiums or something? Cause to me it looks like you're talking shit. Fact is, they've got the population, stadiums and accommodation to easily support a RWC and are right next door to the UK and France, so they'll get plenty of people visiting.
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The tournament is growing with every edition. But the controversy over the 5 team groups and unequal scheduling has not gone away. There were four perfectly successful World Cups with 4 team groups and equal scheduling - NO controversy.
 
Yes, we are discussing geographical size, not population. You seem to have confused the two. Ireland is a tiny country geographically, half the size of NZ's South Island. There just isnt room for a 20 team tournament, let alone the 24 team expanded model World Rugby is contemplating. That's why I had little doubt that, within hours of being awarded a World cup, Ireland would promptly announce that a substantial number of games would be shipped to Britain. We've been duped this way before, of course. As for stadiums and hotels, I'm not so confident personally, and when it comes to stadia I have already illustrated that South Africa's are bigger, more modern and vastly more plentiful.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554711" data-time="1453945261">
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Most of them have at times, though few of them recently, and some of them we're going back a long way. There's no contest concerning stadia. South Africa is light years ahead
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There's no way its most. All of them would have been upgraded at some time to meet changing building and fire codes. The only thing in question is when they were last upgraded and if they can be upgraded in time for a rwc.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554693" data-time="1453940632">
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What matters is that you can fill out the stadiums, and SA would most certainly do this. Besides, UK fans have already had the luxury 4 times from the 8 tournaments to date. Very nice for them. South Africa is far from isolated. Rugby is actually quite popular among most of its neighbors, they just don't have the funding or the opportunities to be successful. But a World Cup for SA would be a World Cup for Africa, for the first time in a generation, and that would have a ripple effect in Namibia and Zimbabwe, on through Madagascar and Zambia and right up to 7s-mad Kenya and African Cup first division newcomer Uganda. These re developing rugby nations with large player communities. 
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The ripple effect was one of the reasonings behind giving Japan the rwc, i thought that was bullshit then too.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554626" data-time="1453934104">
I'm expressing my opinions. That's what forums are for. It's dismissing opinions with silly insults which is haughty. So, no, there's no hypocrisy at all. Personal experience, you say? I've actually been to Ireland. How about you?</blockquote>
 
I've developed a bit of a feeling that Pot Hale may have been to Ireland at some stage ...

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="554695" data-time="1453941013">
While I agree that it being in SA would be great and sure they would do a great job, but your arguments against it being in Ireland are weak, and I think they would do an equally great job of hosting it too.</blockquote>
 
What TR said. Except: vuvuzelas.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554712" data-time="1453945667">
The tournament is growing with every edition. But the controversy over the 5 team groups and unequal scheduling has not gone away. There were four perfectly successful World Cups with 4 team groups and equal scheduling - NO controversy. 
Yes, we are discussing geographical size, not population. You seem to have confused the two. Ireland is a tiny country geographically, half the size of NZ's South Island. There just isnt room for a 20 team tournament, let alone the 24 team expanded model World Rugby is contemplating. That's why I had little doubt that, within hours of being awarded a World cup, Ireland would promptly announce that a substantial number of games would be shipped to Britain. We've been duped this way before, of course. As for stadiums and hotels, I'm not so confident personally, and when it comes to stadia I have already illustrated that South Africa's are bigger, more modern and vastly more plentiful.</blockquote>

99 had 4 team pools and was an abortion
Seriously with the size of the land mass? Weird

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554717" data-time="1453947027">
There's no way its most. All of them would have been upgraded at some time to meet changing building and fire codes. The only thing in question is when they were last upgraded and if they can be upgraded in time for a rwc.</blockquote>
 
7 years is plenty long enough to upgrade

Derm McCrum

Oh look. There's been a few more posts in my absence. 
Right - where will I start? 
Hmmm nibble, nibble.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="554724" data-time="1453948793">
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Oh look. There's been a few more posts in my absence. 
Right - where will I start? 
Hmmm nibble, nibble.
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First up, have you ever been to Ireland?

Derm McCrum

Rowan - let's start with your personal knowledge. 
Have you lived in South Africa and for how long? 
I was there for three weeks - once. In Cape Town. That's the total sum of my personal experience of the entire country. 
You say you've been to Ireland. For how long and what time of the year and where did you stay?

Hooroo

I'm giggling at work now

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="554500" data-time="1453883960">
That wasn't what I said at all. What I said is that increased exposure to tier 1 teams is no guarantee to improve the quality of rugby. Example Italy and Argentina, One has much more exposure yet has not really progressed the other has recently had more exposure and has progressed massively. So it must be something else that is causing it. I don't know what it is but there is more to it then just regular games against better opposition. 
Oh and in the last world cup 
Aussie beat Uruguay by 65-3 
Saffers beat USA 64 - 0 
Argentina beat Namibia 64 -19 
All of those are hidings, considering the tier 1 teams did not even roll out their top teams.</blockquote>Actually the Saffas v USA game would be an example of why expanding would be a good idea. USA put out their reserves due to a short turnaround because of the odd number of teams in a pool.

Derm McCrum

It seems I may have missed out on getting a response from Rowan. Just in case he returns, a few other questions: 
What's your area of work expertise? 
And a few facts for you to discover: 
How many foreign visitors did South Africa have in its latest published tourism figures for 2014? 
How many did the island of Ireland have in the same year? 
How many bed stays did SA have? 
What was the occupancy rate? 
What is the average earning spend per foreign visitor to SA? 
Which are the actual stadia that SA propose to use, their capacity, and where are they located? 
What's the average travel distance/duration between the various venues? 
What's the likely cost per visitor going to be in travelling around? 
How many stadia are needed to host the RWC in its current format? 
What do you think is the target number of visitors that SA would set to bring to SA? 
I have a few more, but I'll let you get started on those.
 
EDIT: Oh - I forgot to say that part of my career experience lies in tourism marketing, event development and management. My father and an uncle worked in Irish tourism development for 35 years, and my daughter works in destination management and Ireland event marketing.
 
EDIt 2: oh - and yes, I have been to Ireland. My stay was probably longer than yours, I suspect.

Derm McCrum

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554662" data-time="1453937005">
Sure, just checked the average October weather conditions for London, Dublin and Belfast.
 
In London the average temperature is 13 degrees with 5 hours of sunshine and a 50% chance of rain.
In Dublin the average temperature is 10 degrees with 3 hours of sunshine and a 60% chance of rain.
In Belfast the average temperature is 9 degrees with 2 hours of sunshine and a 74% chance of rain.
 
So it's the idea I have a chip on my shoulder about Ireland which is a joke, clearly.
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I really liked this one. 
 
I can remember sitting down to watch the first match on 18 Sept of last year's RWC outside under clear blue skies with temp at 61F (I'm a bit old school) (16-17c) with a load of Kiwis, Aussies, Saffas, English and Americans who all managed to fit into the place, without "being on top of each other". In London that day, the temp was 60F. with a low of 42.
 
And for the rest of the tournament it was between 55-60F. And I sat outside for 90% of the matches. Daylight averaged between 11-12 hours each day, getting dark about 7pm except for the last week when clocks went back by an hour. 
 
The winter season in UK and Ireland run approx from mid-Nov to mid-Feb. The RWC runs in the Autumn. Pitches are not soggy or muddy. And given that a number of artificial pitches have been laid and more are due to be installed, this is going to be even less of an issue. 
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The Silver Fern

2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa