2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa

jegga

Anyone have any theories why Argentina has progressed and Italy are still fairly rubbish after 16 years in the 6n? They don't really do much for the theory that playing top teams on a regular basis helps lift a team, they aren't short of cash either or shy about poaching players .

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554513" data-time="1453886732">"I actually wouldn't care if they kept the 20-team format for a while yet. I would prefer they made more of a 2nd tier comp for the other emerging nations to play in, with the winner getting a guaranteed spot in the main cup. " 
They already have. It's called a repechage tournament.</blockquote>
 
No. 
The repecharge is to find the last, lowest level of qualifiers after the automatic qualifiers and then the reginsl qualifiers. 
I agree with Mariner. Definitely scope for a second tier tourney running parallel with the Cup knockouts. 
No need for 24 teams.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="554543" data-time="1453891651">
<div>
No. 
The repecharge is to find the last, lowest level of qualifiers after the automatic qualifiers and then the reginsl qualifiers. 
I agree with Mariner. Definitely scope for a second tier tourney running parallel with the Cup knockouts. 
No need for 24 teams.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Something similar to the sevens with a plate comp? 24 teams is too many, there'd be some real dross there.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554520" data-time="1453887182">
It's just a better country to stage it in, with bigger and better stadiums, much larger population & TV market - almost on the same time zone as the British Isles, better weather conditions, and a whole lot more to do for the travelling fans. 
"Why is its geographical size a disadvantage ? " Would you stage it in Samoa then?</blockquote>
 
Weird post. 
Ireland has some pretty good stadiums. 
Lower crime rate too. 
Travelling around South Africa is more of an issue. A logistical challenge. 
Ireland has sufficient good quality stadiums and will have plenty upgrades if yhey win the bid. 
TV audience within the host country is irrelevant. SA has same time zone as Europe so rights will be the same regardless. 
Reagarding attractions for travelling fans - that is an issue in itself. Fans will HAVE to travel rather than jump on a Ryanair (or whatever) flight for an overnighter. 
Population is Samoa's issue not geographical size. I'm wrong - that wasn't weird it was silly. 
Don't get me wrong. I'd have no objection to SA hosting. And am not advocating Ireland. As I said above I'd be happy with SA Ireland or Italy of those bidding. Would love to go to that WC. Just some of your points are a little tenuous.

antipodean

Ireland is near major European transport hubs, could utilise GAA stadiums and hasn't yet hosted. <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554544" data-time="1453891769">Something similar to the sevens with a plate comp? 24 teams is too many, there'd be some real dross there.</blockquote> That's the only way you could introduce worse teams and not have enormous floggings. We also need to see if the 2015 RWC was an aberration in terms of score differentials.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="554549" data-time="1453893028">
<div>
Ireland is near major European transport hubs, could utilise GAA stadiums and hasn't yet hosted. 
That's the only way you could introduce worse teams and not have enormous floggings. We also need to see if the 2015 RWC was an aberration in terms of score differentials.
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</blockquote>
 
Who are likely to be the next four teams? I don't think we need to introduce worse teams.

antipodean

based on the last RWC, Russia, Zimbabwe, Hong Kong and one of Germany, Chile, South Korea or Kenya.

booboo

Based on current rankings teams 18 - 30 are 
18 (18) Russia RUS 63.54 
19 (19) Canada CAN 62.65 
20 (20) Uruguay URU 62.11 
21 (21) Spain ESP 61.96 
22 (22) Namibia NAM 61.75 
23 (23) Hong Kong HKG 57.17 
24 (24) Chile CHL 56.92 
25 (25) KoreaKOR 56.70 
26 (26) Germany GER 56.69 
27 (27) Portugal POR 56.34 
28 (28) Kenya KEN 55.89 
29 (29) Belgium BEL 55.69 
30 (30) Ukraine UKR 55.51 
31 (31) Zimbabwe ZIM 53.24 
Canada, Uruguay and Namibia at 19 20 and 22

Unco

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="554500" data-time="1453883960">
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That wasn't what I said at all. What I said is that increased exposure to tier 1 teams is no guarantee to improve the quality of rugby. Example Italy and Argentina, One has much more exposure yet has not really progressed the other has recently had more exposure and has progressed massively. So it must be something else that is causing it. I don't know what it is but there is more to it then just regular games against better opposition. 
 
Oh and in the last world cup
 
Aussie beat Uruguay by 65-3
Saffers beat USA 64 - 0
Argentina beat Namibia 64 -19
 
All of those are hidings, considering the tier 1 teams did not even roll out their top teams.
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Of course it's no guarantee, they've still got to have the talent, coaching staff, infrastructure and so on to really take advantage of that and turn themselves into a world class team. Scotland have been around the top level for a hell of a lot longer than Italy but they're still one of the weakest tier 1 teams in the sport. So I'd guess that with what Italy have, their exposure to a high level of rugby is probably the only thing that's keeping them where they are now. Take the Six Nations away and they'd probably fall off a cliff.
 
As for the 2015 RWC, I said many, not none. From what I recall, the real thrashings were pretty few and far between and that most of the lopsided final scores came down to that last 20 minutes and their fitness levels.
 
Oh and Rowan, I think your proposed structure for a 24 team tournament sucks. Adding four teams would extend the tournament by a whooping one week, that's hardly protracted.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="554554" data-time="1453893924">
...Scotland have been around the top level for a hell of a lot longer than Italy but they're still one of the weakest tier 1 teams in the sport...</blockquote>
 
I take issue with "still". I recall them being the strongest of the Home Unions. Admittedly it was the 80s ... 
It's about structure, style, management, governance, development.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="554553" data-time="1453893813">
Based on current rankings teams 18 - 30 are 
18 (18) Russia RUS 63.54 
19 (19) Canada CAN 62.65 
20 (20) Uruguay URU 62.11 
21 (21) Spain ESP 61.96 
22 (22) Namibia NAM 61.75 
23 (23) Hong Kong HKG 57.17 
24 (24) Chile CHL 56.92 
25 (25) KoreaKOR 56.70 
26 (26) Germany GER 56.69 
27 (27) Portugal POR 56.34 
28 (28) Kenya KEN 55.89 
29 (29) Belgium BEL 55.69 
30 (30) Ukraine UKR 55.51 
31 (31) Zimbabwe ZIM 53.24 
Canada, Uruguay and Namibia at 19 20 and 22</blockquote>
 
Sorry. I tidied up the formatting on that list. 
From here <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.worldrugby.org/rankings">http://www.worldrugby.org/rankings</a> 
If you're interested.

Rowan

"So you don't know how the SA bid was better than NZs then? Probably best you stop claiming it then."
 
That's a very haughty attitude to take. Are we not entitled to express opinions here then? It's a long time ago since the 2011 tournament was awarded to NZ, and I don't recall the finer details, I'm afraid, but I distinctly recall the South Africa bid appeared superior to me. What I do know are the comments I expressed above, which you failed to address in your response. 
 
 
"The Samoa comment is silly, it makes your argument look even weaker." 
 
No, it's your dismissive attitude which comes across as silly. It's a perfectly fair comment I made; the point being, where would you draw the line with small nation tournaments? Ireland is geographically tiny and the weather conditions are not conducive to the open, expansive brand of rugby most of us would like to see - and which we did see in South Africa in 1995. As mentioned, there are only two major cities and a limited number of stadiums - almost none of which would be rugby purpose stadiums. South Africa, meanwile, not only has among the best rugby purpose stadiums on the planet, it also has a vast array of football stadiums, many of which were upgraded for the 2010 FIFA World Cup. It also has a population of 50 million, and geographical dimensions which are about perfect for a World Cup tournament - which loads to do for the travelling fan.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554528" data-time="1453889023">
<div>
Don't forget the endless opportunities to be the victim of a serious crime as well . 
I don't think it sends a particularly good message to SAs union giving them a rwc considering their idiot behaviour .
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So you wouldn't hold it America either then? You know, they have that massive gun control problem . . .
 
Actually, South Africa already holds an annual international 7s tournament without everybody getting mugged, and crime wasn't a problem for the FIFA World Cup there either.
 
Can you elaborate on your comment about the SA union's behavior? You men their sluggish approach to transition or something?

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554558" data-time="1453894640">"So you don't know how the SA bid was better than NZs then? Probably best you stop claiming it then." 
That's a very haughty attitude to take. Are we not entitled to express opinions here then? It's a long time ago since the 2011 tournament was awarded to NZ, and I don't recall the finer details, I'm afraid, but I distinctly recall the South Africa bid appeared superior to me. What I do know are the comments I expressed above, which you failed to address in your response. "The Samoa comment is silly, it makes your argument look even weaker." 
No, it's your dismissive attitude which comes across as silly. It's a perfectly fair comment I made; the point being, where would you draw the line with small nation tournaments? Ireland is geographically tiny and the weather conditions are not conducive to the open, expansive brand of rugby most of us would like to see - and which we did see in South Africa in 1995. As mentioned, there are only two major cities and a limited number of stadiums - almost none of which would be rugby purpose stadiums. South Africa, meanwile, not only has among the best rugby purpose stadiums on the planet, it also has a vast array of football stadiums, many of which were upgraded for the 2020 FIFA World Cup. It also has a population of 50 million, and geographical dimensions which are about perfect for a World Cup tournament - which loads to do for the travelling fan.</blockquote>
 
The Samoa comment was idiotic Rowan. Completely unrelated issues of population and geographical size. 
Wouldn't Ireland have similar weather/climate (apparently there is a distinction) to England? Shit dour footy at RWC 2015 wasn't it? Wasn't it? 
2010 FWC

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="554533" data-time="1453890596">
<div>
I get that we have to expand the game but I don't know if a 24 team World Cup is the right way to do that. I would like to keep it as a 20 team World Cup but everyone has to qualify. That way you would give the developing nations the chance to play the top tier nations more than once every four years. What we need to do now is to make sure that a team like Georgia has the opportunity to become like Argentina. I think that is more pertinent than expanding to 24 teams. In saying that, we will probably have to expand the tournament at some stage. I just don't think we will be there yet in 2023.
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</blockquote>
 
World Rugby itself has mentioned expansion. This isn't coming from me, though I do support it. Yes, as mentioned in my original post, much work needs to be done in the interim. What stands in the way of a more global rugby circuit are the closed-shop elite tournaments and the stratification of nations through tiers.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554539" data-time="1453890916">
<div>
Anyone have any theories why Argentina has progressed and Italy are still fairly rubbish after 16 years in the 6n? They don't really do much for the theory that playing top teams on a regular basis helps lift a team, they aren't short of cash either or shy about poaching players .
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Italy has actually come a long way since the amateur age. Remember that as recently as 1999 they conceded a ton against the All Blacks and lost to Tonga at the World Cup. During much of their involvement in FIRA competition during the 20th century they generally played second fiddle to Romania, and sometimes third to the USSR. In fact, they never actually won the competition until their final year of involvement!! Now they are consistent, at least, and averaging about a win a year in the 6 Nations, having defeating all the other teams bar England. It took France a couple of decades to get up to speed after joining the 5 Nations, let's not forget. Argentina, on the other hand, has been a respectable force since the 1960s, & began to really threaten the heirarchy in the 80s (beat the Boks in SA disguised as the Jaguars, drew with NZ and very nearly snatched victory in the dying moments, thrashed the Wallabies in Aussie, beat France and all the Celtic teams). So I don't think we can really compare the two.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="554543" data-time="1453891651">
<div>
No. 
The repecharge is to find the last, lowest level of qualifiers after the automatic qualifiers and then the reginsl qualifiers. 
I agree with Mariner. Definitely scope for a second tier tourney running parallel with the Cup knockouts. 
No need for 24 teams.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I know. But it's been turned into a 4-team competition now. Isn't that what you mean? It could grow in the future, of course.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="554560" data-time="1453895013">
<div>
The Samoa comment was idiotic Rowan. Completely unrelated issues of population and geographical size. 
Wouldn't Ireland have similar weather/climate (apparently there is a distinction) to England? Shit dour footy at RWC 2015 wasn't it? Wasn't it? 
2010 FWC
</div>
</blockquote>
 
The Samoa comment was perfectly relevant. You're talking about small nations and I want to know where you draw the line. How about Fiji then? They've got a 25,000 seater stadium in Suva.
 
Dublin and Belfast - Ireland's only two major cities - have much worse weather than much of England, including London. It's more comparable to the north of England, Manchester, Newcastle and all. During the winter it's all dark by mid-afternoon. Pretty dreary place to hold a World Cup, in my view.

Rowan

"Oh and Rowan, I think your proposed structure for a 24 team tournament sucks. Adding four teams would extend the tournament by a whooping one week, that's hardly protracted."
 
It would actually be about a week shorter. 4-team groups entail three similtaneous rounds, so can be played in just over a week with one midweek round. Let's say, a Saturday-Wednesday-Sunday schedule, for example. Then a week for each of the knock-out rounds gives us a 5-week tournament. A 20-team tournament requires 6 weeks to complete, including 3 weeks for the group stages because the four rounds cannot be played simultaneously due to uneven numbers. The controversy surrounding unequal scheduling is one of the reasons World Rugby is looking at expansion.
 
The group stages produce few surprises (a few notable exceptions, of course) and many one-sided encounters. In a 20-team tournament this goes on for about 3 weeks, half the tournament, and becomes a little tedious. In a 24-team tournament the group stages would be done and dusted in just over a week, and the rest of the tournament would entail sudden-death encounters between more evenly matched teams.

antipodean

Given the weather, what makes you think it would be held in winter? The fact the last RWC was? Oh wait. Your Samoa analogy is perfect, or would be if Ireland didn't have 24 time the population of Samoa, or 12 times the GDP per capita.

The Silver Fern

2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa