2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554626" data-time="1453934104">
I'm expressing my opinions. That's what forums are for. It's dismissing opinions with silly insults which is haughty. So, no, there's no hypocrisy at all. Personal experience, you say? I've actually been to Ireland. How about you?</blockquote>
 
I've developed a bit of a feeling that Pot Hale may have been to Ireland at some stage ...

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="554695" data-time="1453941013">
While I agree that it being in SA would be great and sure they would do a great job, but your arguments against it being in Ireland are weak, and I think they would do an equally great job of hosting it too.</blockquote>
 
What TR said. Except: vuvuzelas.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554712" data-time="1453945667">
The tournament is growing with every edition. But the controversy over the 5 team groups and unequal scheduling has not gone away. There were four perfectly successful World Cups with 4 team groups and equal scheduling - NO controversy. 
Yes, we are discussing geographical size, not population. You seem to have confused the two. Ireland is a tiny country geographically, half the size of NZ's South Island. There just isnt room for a 20 team tournament, let alone the 24 team expanded model World Rugby is contemplating. That's why I had little doubt that, within hours of being awarded a World cup, Ireland would promptly announce that a substantial number of games would be shipped to Britain. We've been duped this way before, of course. As for stadiums and hotels, I'm not so confident personally, and when it comes to stadia I have already illustrated that South Africa's are bigger, more modern and vastly more plentiful.</blockquote>

99 had 4 team pools and was an abortion
Seriously with the size of the land mass? Weird

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554717" data-time="1453947027">
There's no way its most. All of them would have been upgraded at some time to meet changing building and fire codes. The only thing in question is when they were last upgraded and if they can be upgraded in time for a rwc.</blockquote>
 
7 years is plenty long enough to upgrade

Derm McCrum

Oh look. There's been a few more posts in my absence. 
Right - where will I start? 
Hmmm nibble, nibble.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="554724" data-time="1453948793">
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Oh look. There's been a few more posts in my absence. 
Right - where will I start? 
Hmmm nibble, nibble.
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</blockquote>
 
First up, have you ever been to Ireland?

Derm McCrum

Rowan - let's start with your personal knowledge. 
Have you lived in South Africa and for how long? 
I was there for three weeks - once. In Cape Town. That's the total sum of my personal experience of the entire country. 
You say you've been to Ireland. For how long and what time of the year and where did you stay?

Hooroo

I'm giggling at work now

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="554500" data-time="1453883960">
That wasn't what I said at all. What I said is that increased exposure to tier 1 teams is no guarantee to improve the quality of rugby. Example Italy and Argentina, One has much more exposure yet has not really progressed the other has recently had more exposure and has progressed massively. So it must be something else that is causing it. I don't know what it is but there is more to it then just regular games against better opposition. 
Oh and in the last world cup 
Aussie beat Uruguay by 65-3 
Saffers beat USA 64 - 0 
Argentina beat Namibia 64 -19 
All of those are hidings, considering the tier 1 teams did not even roll out their top teams.</blockquote>Actually the Saffas v USA game would be an example of why expanding would be a good idea. USA put out their reserves due to a short turnaround because of the odd number of teams in a pool.

Derm McCrum

It seems I may have missed out on getting a response from Rowan. Just in case he returns, a few other questions: 
What's your area of work expertise? 
And a few facts for you to discover: 
How many foreign visitors did South Africa have in its latest published tourism figures for 2014? 
How many did the island of Ireland have in the same year? 
How many bed stays did SA have? 
What was the occupancy rate? 
What is the average earning spend per foreign visitor to SA? 
Which are the actual stadia that SA propose to use, their capacity, and where are they located? 
What's the average travel distance/duration between the various venues? 
What's the likely cost per visitor going to be in travelling around? 
How many stadia are needed to host the RWC in its current format? 
What do you think is the target number of visitors that SA would set to bring to SA? 
I have a few more, but I'll let you get started on those.
 
EDIT: Oh - I forgot to say that part of my career experience lies in tourism marketing, event development and management. My father and an uncle worked in Irish tourism development for 35 years, and my daughter works in destination management and Ireland event marketing.
 
EDIt 2: oh - and yes, I have been to Ireland. My stay was probably longer than yours, I suspect.

Derm McCrum

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554662" data-time="1453937005">
Sure, just checked the average October weather conditions for London, Dublin and Belfast.
 
In London the average temperature is 13 degrees with 5 hours of sunshine and a 50% chance of rain.
In Dublin the average temperature is 10 degrees with 3 hours of sunshine and a 60% chance of rain.
In Belfast the average temperature is 9 degrees with 2 hours of sunshine and a 74% chance of rain.
 
So it's the idea I have a chip on my shoulder about Ireland which is a joke, clearly.
</blockquote>
I really liked this one. 
 
I can remember sitting down to watch the first match on 18 Sept of last year's RWC outside under clear blue skies with temp at 61F (I'm a bit old school) (16-17c) with a load of Kiwis, Aussies, Saffas, English and Americans who all managed to fit into the place, without "being on top of each other". In London that day, the temp was 60F. with a low of 42.
 
And for the rest of the tournament it was between 55-60F. And I sat outside for 90% of the matches. Daylight averaged between 11-12 hours each day, getting dark about 7pm except for the last week when clocks went back by an hour. 
 
The winter season in UK and Ireland run approx from mid-Nov to mid-Feb. The RWC runs in the Autumn. Pitches are not soggy or muddy. And given that a number of artificial pitches have been laid and more are due to be installed, this is going to be even less of an issue. 
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taniwharugby

bro you've been here long enough to know facts, logic and common sense have no place in discussions!
 
Innuendo, opinion and mate-reviewed stuff is what rolls around here!

jegga

Perhaps out Irish posters might like to address these comments from Rowan?
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350'>http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350</a>
 
Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border
 
 think Ireland would be disastrous. Too small, too cold and wet, not enough decent stadiums, hotels, things to do,

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554749" data-time="1453954029">
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Perhaps out Irish posters might like to address these comments from Rowan?
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350'>http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350</a>
 
Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border
 
 think Ireland would be disastrous. Too small, too cold and wet, not enough decent stadiums, hotels, things to do,
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</blockquote>
 
But given that England and France have never hosted it on their own, what makes you think that Ireland will?
 
There's just no evidence to suggest that any home union will host the thing solo - why argue differently?

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="554689" data-time="1453940042">
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"There has been a Â£1â€‰billion direct cash injection into the UK economy, a boost of Â£2.5â€‰billion when taking into account knock-on effects and the retail sales rise of 1.9 per cent last month." <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11964535/Englands-Rugby-World-Cup-billion-pound-extravaganza-is-the-biggest-and-the-best-says-World-Rugby.html'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11964535/Englands-Rugby-World-Cup-billion-pound-extravaganza-is-the-biggest-and-the-best-says-World-Rugby.html</a>
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</blockquote>
 
Article provides no citation and the 'knock-on effects' is the usual ludicrous multiplier.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="554751" data-time="1453954498">
<div>
But given that England and France have never hosted it on their own, what makes you think that Ireland will?
 
There's just no evidence to suggest that any home union will host the thing solo - why argue differently?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Rowan is claiming it wont all be in Ireland because some of the games will be played in Northern Ireland, not because they might be played in the England Scotland or Wales. Thats quite a different slant.

Derm McCrum

Some of the "creaking" "138 year old" stadia to be used:
 
Croke Park 83,000 - has been used before for two Six Nations Championships - opened in 1884. Complete redevelopment completed in 2005.
Lansdowne Road 53,000 - used for both rugby and soccer internationals (built 2010) 
Casement Park 32,000 - due to be upgraded to 40,000 as part of a current Â£138m stadium redevelopment programme in NI (completed 2017/18)
Windsor Park 20,000 - upgraded in 2015
Ravenhill - 18,000 upgrade in 2015
Pairc Ui Chaoimh - 53,000 upgrade ongoing - 2017
RDS, Dublin - 18,000 current - â‚¬20m upgrade starting in 2016 to 25,000
Thomond Park 25,000 - complete redevelopment finished in 2008
Pearse Stadium - Galway - 26,000
McHale Park, Castlebar - 49,000 completely redeveloped in 2011
Gaelic Grounds, Limerick - 49,500
Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney - 43,000
 
An estimate has been put together upgrade the relevant stadia to include additional seating, media facilities, etc. All of the stadia are used regularly each year so no white elephants.
 
During the summer months, the GAA regularly gets in 1.5 million people attending games across various stadia each year. Last year in Dublin with the RWC warm up games and the top GAA matches, there were approx 850,000 attendances over 10 weeks. Regular occurrence.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554755" data-time="1453955082">
<div>
Rowan is claiming it wont all be in Ireland because some of the games will be played in Northern Ireland, not because they might be played in the England Scotland or Wales. Thats quite a different slant.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Ok thanks

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554749" data-time="1453954029">
<div>
Perhaps out Irish posters might like to address these comments from Rowan?
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350'>http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=211&start=350</a>
 
Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border
 
 think Ireland would be disastrous. Too small, too cold and wet, not enough decent stadiums, hotels, things to do,
</div>
</blockquote>
Oh - lovely
 
Not enough decent stadiums - see above.
 
Too cold and wet - dealt with that.
 
Not enough hotels and things to do?
 
Hmmm
 
Some stats for Northern Ireland in 2014 - source (Tourism Statistics Branch, NISRA) - Northern Ireland is approximately one-sixth of the island of Ireland in size.
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<div>
<div>
<ul><li>
in 2014 overnight trips by all visitors (domestic and external) stood at 4.5 million, up 11% on 2013. 
</li>
<li>
in 2014 external (outside NI) overnight trips increased by 4% to 2.2m. 
</li>
<li>
over 15 million visits were made to local visitor attractions in 2014, a 3% increase on 2013. The top attractions of Giantâ€™s Causeway (0.788 million visits) and Titanic Belfast (0.634 million visits) both experienced 5% increases; 
</li>
<li>
hotel room occupancy stood at 65% up from 64% in 2013. In total 1.85 million hotel room nights were sold in 2014; 
</li>
<li>
last year, 69 cruise ships docked with up to 121,000 passengers/crew on board. The number of cruise ships docking here has doubled over the last three years 
</li>
</ul> 
2.2m foreign visitors in Northern Ireland. 7.7m in the Republic of Ireland (Tourism Ireland report) - projected to be 12.3m in 2024 by World Travel & Tourism Council
Total foreign visitors to South Africa in 2014 - 9.6m (Tourism Dept of SA) - projected to be 13.4m in 2024 (WTTC estimate)
 
I reckon there's sufficient numbers of tourists, capacity, bed occupancy and things to do.
 
 
 
 
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Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="554755" data-time="1453955082">
<div>
Rowan is claiming it wont all be in Ireland because some of the games will be played in Northern Ireland, not because they might be played in the England Scotland or Wales. Thats quite a different slant.
</div>
</blockquote>
Not quite right Jegga. He says that Ireland will ship a good few of the games to Britain (eng/Sco/Wal) because they won't be able to cope with the numbers of teams and visitors and not enough stadia.
 
It is an all-island bid by the IRFU with the relevant authorities involved. I'm not going to get into the politics of NI. He's claiming that because NI are involved - well that really means the UK is hosting it again.
 
Hope that explains. Cheers

The Silver Fern

2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa