Crusaders v Chiefs
-
I don't understand how anyone can say that Fainga'anuku's foot clearly touched the ground from the footage that was shown, last night. If it was that clear, then the movement of his leg would have been affected by the friction between his foot and the ground. The movement would have slowed down and/or there would have been a (slight) change in direction. Physicis 101. I think this is one of those cases where you expect that his foot touched the ground and therefore your brain tells you he has. So - at best - his foot rubbed the tips of the grass, but the footage was not clear enough to see that. So the TMO can't reach the standard of "clear and obvious" which the TMO protocol requires to overturn the on-field decision of the ref. "Balance of probabilities" is not the standard used.
IMO, that same standard also wasn't met when they checked RM's forward pass. I don't think it was forward because the ball seemed to leave his hands backward (forward movement alone is irrelevant), but I didn't see any clear evidence that Weber's hand/arm touched the ball either. At least from the footage that was shown on tv. We know the TMO has more angles, but I think the decision was made way too fast. That also applies to the decision about McKenzie's try, which looked well short at first grounding.
Anyway, it's funny how people complained in previous weeks about the ill-discipline of the Crusaders and how they should have received more cards, and not after last night's game when the Chiefs gave away penalty after penalty. If Weber didn't deserve that yellow because of that penalty try, then he or one of his team mates deserved a yellow because of the number of penalties conceded (15, the exact same number as the Crusaders got in round 1, which earned them two yellow cards).
-
@stargazer said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
I don't understand how anyone can say that Fainga'anuku's foot clearly touched the ground from the footage that was shown, last night. If it was that clear, then the movement of his leg would have been affected by the friction between his foot and the ground. The movement would have slowed down and/or there would have been a (slight) change in direction. Physicis 101. I think this is one of those cases where you expect that his foot touched the ground and therefore your brain tells you he has. So - at best - his foot rubbed the tips of the grass, but the footage was not clear enough to see that. So the TMO can't reach the standard of "clear and obvious" which the TMO protocol requires to overturn the on-field decision of the ref. "Balance of probabilities" is not the standard used.
IMO, that same standard also wasn't met when they checked RM's forward pass. I don't think it was forward because the ball seemed to leave his hands backward (forward movement alone is irrelevant), but I didn't see any clear evidence that Weber's hand/arm touched the ball either. At least from the footage that was shown on tv. We know the TMO has more angles, but I think the decision was made way too fast. That also applies to the decision about McKenzie's try, which looked well short at first grounding.
Anyway, it's funny how people complained in previous weeks about the ill-discipline of the Crusaders and how they should have received more cards, and not after last night's game when the Chiefs gave away penalty after penalty. If Weber didn't deserve that yellow because of that penalty try, then he or one of his team mates deserved a yellow because of the number of penalties conceded (15, the exact same number as the Crusaders got in round 1, which earned them two yellow cards).
What was clear and obvious about the Mo'unga forward pass was the TMO made his decision on the first angle he saw and got it horribly wrong. He should have had the guts to change his mind when the second angle came up.
It was very obvious that RM tried to throw it backwards, but Weber's impact on his arm made him propel it forwards. Weber did not touch it.
Poor decision.
However, I agree about Fainga'anuku. You/we suspect he brushed the grass, but it wasn't irrefutable.
-
@stargazer the second angle was as clear as day for the Weber/Mounga tackle.
Weber hits Mounga's wrist causing the ball to fly forward.
-
@kiwimurph We didn't see that still image during the game though. As I said, they made the decision way too fast and should have checked it better. In defence of the officials though, we as fans always complain when the game is interrupted for too long because of the TMO looking at all the angles etc, so we want decisions to be made faster. Now they make a decision fast, and it appears it was made too fast. Whatever TMO protocols you use and whichever way it is applied, there will always be people complaining.
-
@stargazer we did see that angle during the game. That image is from Sky.
-
@kiwimurph Yeah, but it lasted a split second. They should have looked at it again. It would be the first time if they'd slowed footage down to have a closer look. They may have had different angles, too.
-
@stargazer said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
@kiwimurph We didn't see that still image during the game though. As I said, they made the decision way too fast and should have checked it better. In defence of the officials though, we as fans always complain when the game is interrupted for too long because of the TMO looking at all the angles etc, so we want decisions to be made faster. Now they make a decision fast, and it appears it was made too fast. Whatever TMO protocols you use and whichever way it is applied, there will always be people complaining.
What footage were you watching?
Or perhaps I should ask through which eye?
Although you may be right, it was perhaps video showing Weber didn't touch it, not a still. Shown twice, once immediately after the first angle just as the TMO flubbed his lines, and then again just before the restart for the penalty try. Both of which were "during the game".
-
-
@stargazer said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
@kiwimurph Yeah, but it lasted a split second. They should have looked at it again. They may have had different angles, too.
I think that’s the point. The captains referral got a glance and was dismissed ( almost as if “how dare you suggest 4 of us didn’t see that”), while other times that the TMO was involved he was pedantic about checking everything 3 times.
-
@stargazer said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
@booboo I looked at moving images that didn't last very long. You can't tell me they showed that as a still image.
I did suggest you were correct that we didn't see a still. Which is good, a still proves nothing. The video showed there was no contact.
Re the process. The other two TMO calls were right, even if you may be able to find reasons to fault them, they used "clear and obvious" evidence, or lack thereof, which is the process.
-
@stargazer said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
In defence of the officials though, we as fans always complain when the game is interrupted for too long because of the TMO looking at all the angles etc, so we want decisions to be made faster. Now they make a decision fast, and it appears it was made too fast. Whatever TMO protocols you use and whichever way it is applied, there will always be people complaining.
100% this. From the first angle it dead set looked like Weber touched the ball (in the opinionif the TMO). Imagine if the officials then went and looked at multiple angles only to confirm that Weber had touched the ball. People would whinge about the decision taking too long and why did they need to check further? If I recall correctly, earlier in this very game there was whinging about how long TMO decisions were taking.
We cannot have it both ways.
-
Upshot is that it shows how hard it can be to break a losing run when subconcious decision making and confirmation bias by refs is added into the general malaise. Blues copped it for ages in a number of losing runs. I remember Ali Williams totally losing his rag against one ref such was the way that they were being judged as if they could do no right. The ref was judging them very differently to the dominant side.
This happens a lot at the moment with momentum periods. Penalties are coming in batches against one side as they get judged more and more on a fine line each one. That penalty against Weber stealing the ball at the back of the scrum was one. He kept ahead of the flanker until the ball came out but the ref's immediate thought was that he was wrong (and he may have been by a toe) rather than that the Saders had had a bad scrum and lost control, leaving the ball open for a steal. -
@crazy-horse said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
@stargazer said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
In defence of the officials though, we as fans always complain when the game is interrupted for too long because of the TMO looking at all the angles etc, so we want decisions to be made faster. Now they make a decision fast, and it appears it was made too fast. Whatever TMO protocols you use and whichever way it is applied, there will always be people complaining.
100% this. From the first angle it dead set looked like Weber touched the ball (in the opinionif the TMO). Imagine if the officials then went and looked at multiple angles only to confirm that Weber had touched the ball. People would whinge about the decision taking too long and why did they need to check further? If I recall correctly, earlier in this very game there was whinging about how long TMO decisions were taking.
We cannot have it both ways.
Nah. Big big difference between looking at the same thing over and over when the picture is obvious and looking at another angle to confirm a first instinct.
-
@crucial said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
Upshot is that it shows how hard it can be to break a losing run when subconcious decision making and confirmation bias by refs is added into the general malaise. Blues copped it for ages in a number of losing runs. I remember Ali Williams totally losing his rag against one ref such was the way that they were being judged as if they could do no right. The ref was judging them very differently to the dominant side.
This happens a lot at the moment with momentum periods. Penalties are coming in batches against one side as they get judged more and more on a fine line each one. That penalty against Weber stealing the ball at the back of the scrum was one. He kept ahead of the flanker until the ball came out but the ref's immediate thought was that he was wrong (and he may have been by a toe) rather than that the Saders had had a bad scrum and lost control, leaving the ball open for a steal.I agree this happens, teams/players who are perceived as 'better' do tend to get the rub of the green from refs.
Perhaps now Blues and Chiefs fans will be more sympathetic towards foreign fans when they complain the ABs are favoured 😀
-
@crazy-horse said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
@crucial said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
Upshot is that it shows how hard it can be to break a losing run when subconcious decision making and confirmation bias by refs is added into the general malaise. Blues copped it for ages in a number of losing runs. I remember Ali Williams totally losing his rag against one ref such was the way that they were being judged as if they could do no right. The ref was judging them very differently to the dominant side.
This happens a lot at the moment with momentum periods. Penalties are coming in batches against one side as they get judged more and more on a fine line each one. That penalty against Weber stealing the ball at the back of the scrum was one. He kept ahead of the flanker until the ball came out but the ref's immediate thought was that he was wrong (and he may have been by a toe) rather than that the Saders had had a bad scrum and lost control, leaving the ball open for a steal.I agree this happens, teams/players who are perceived as 'better' do tend to get the rub of the green from refs.
Perhaps now Blues and Chiefs fans will be more sympathetic towards foreign fans when they complain the ABs are favoured 😀
Unless they are Australian or English, OK
-
@crazy-horse said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
@stargazer said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
In defence of the officials though, we as fans always complain when the game is interrupted for too long because of the TMO looking at all the angles etc, so we want decisions to be made faster. Now they make a decision fast, and it appears it was made too fast. Whatever TMO protocols you use and whichever way it is applied, there will always be people complaining.
100% this. From the first angle it dead set looked like Weber touched the ball (in the opinionif the TMO). Imagine if the officials then went and looked at multiple angles only to confirm that Weber had touched the ball. People would whinge about the decision taking too long and why did they need to check further? If I recall correctly, earlier in this very game there was whinging about how long TMO decisions were taking.
We cannot have it both ways.
What B/S, the TMO could have spent an extra 1 second looking at the footage and saw what we all saw (aside from some on here who are pretending they didn't see it) and the decision would have been made. Then we don't get a penalty try, yellow card, try when a player is in the bin that shouldn't have happened. The Crusaders still would have won but there wouldn't be as much controversy.
-
@crazy-horse said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
@crucial said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
Upshot is that it shows how hard it can be to break a losing run when subconcious decision making and confirmation bias by refs is added into the general malaise. Blues copped it for ages in a number of losing runs. I remember Ali Williams totally losing his rag against one ref such was the way that they were being judged as if they could do no right. The ref was judging them very differently to the dominant side.
This happens a lot at the moment with momentum periods. Penalties are coming in batches against one side as they get judged more and more on a fine line each one. That penalty against Weber stealing the ball at the back of the scrum was one. He kept ahead of the flanker until the ball came out but the ref's immediate thought was that he was wrong (and he may have been by a toe) rather than that the Saders had had a bad scrum and lost control, leaving the ball open for a steal.I agree this happens, teams/players who are perceived as 'better' do tend to get the rub of the green from refs.
Perhaps now Blues and Chiefs fans will be more sympathetic towards foreign fans when they complain the ABs are favoured 😀
Chiefs got a number of apologies from the refs last year. Some of which were result impacting. They will probably get another this week.
-
@crucial said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
@crazy-horse said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
@stargazer said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
In defence of the officials though, we as fans always complain when the game is interrupted for too long because of the TMO looking at all the angles etc, so we want decisions to be made faster. Now they make a decision fast, and it appears it was made too fast. Whatever TMO protocols you use and whichever way it is applied, there will always be people complaining.
100% this. From the first angle it dead set looked like Weber touched the ball (in the opinionif the TMO). Imagine if the officials then went and looked at multiple angles only to confirm that Weber had touched the ball. People would whinge about the decision taking too long and why did they need to check further? If I recall correctly, earlier in this very game there was whinging about how long TMO decisions were taking.
We cannot have it both ways.
Nah. Big big difference between looking at the same thing over and over when the picture is obvious and looking at another angle to confirm a first instinct.
But in the TMO's opinion it was so obvious that Weber touched the ball it was not worth a second look. And I bet the TMO is well aware of the constant bitching about how long it takes to make decisions.
Do we mandate a TMO must look at a least two angles then? Do we also mandate the maximum looks a TMO can take before a decision must be made to keep the whingers at the other end of the spectrum happy? The old try to keep everybody happy trick. Because that always works.
I am sick of the bitching about ref decisions. It seems to happy after and during every game now.
-
@crazy-horse said in Crusaders v Chiefs:
I am sick of the bitching about ref decisions.
I'm sick of shitty ref decisions.
