2021 School rugby

Stargazer

@nepia Yeah, I thought about Te Aute, but didn't mention it because they aren't competing in CNI anymore and are now more similar (in strength) to the other schools that compete in the Hawke's Bay school competition (like Wairoa College, Central HB College, Taradale HS etc). Tbh, they've been pretty bad in recent years. I think Te Aute attracts students for reasons not related to rugby, and not just from the province, but from all over the country (like in the past, Karl Te Nana, Piri Weepu, Kane Hames etc).

shark

@stargazer said in 2021 School rugby:

@shark Except, that in towns like Napier and Hastings the majority of talent is not funneled into the 2 dominant schools (Napier & Hastings Boys). We also have schools in the next tier (CNI) in Lindisfarne and St John's. These schools won't make the Top 4, but still attract local talent and have produced All Blacks & Super Rugby players. To use a rough calculation similar to yours: a combined Napier & Hastings population of approx. 115,000 is spread among 4 schools.

The same applies to schools in Hamilton, Palmerston North (Feilding HS, for example) and New Plymouth (Francis Douglas MC). I don't know about Gisborne, Tauranga and Rotorua.

Your counter argument apples to Hamilton certainly and probably the HB structure but my point stands re several of the other centres and their contribution to the strength of the Super 8. Tauranga has 150,000 people and how many strong schools? Palmy 82,000 and just one other decent school? Rotorua 58k and just one good school? New Plymouth has two competitive colleges in it's 58k so their playing strength is fairly spread. Gisborne is smaller than Nelson so I'll remove their example from the reckoning.

The point is, several of these population bases are significant and a lot of local talent goes to the dominant rugby school, which helps to raise the level of the competition and also raise the chances of the Super 8 schools competing to a high level in the Top 4.

Bovidae

The live game on SS4 tomorrow (2:20 pm) is Kelston Boys vs St Kentigern. From results so far Kelston look to have a strong team this year.

Stargazer

Christ's College:

Paris’ loss is our gain. Former All Black and Crusaders back Casey Laulala has joined our rugby coaching team. He’ll be spending a lot of time with our junior players, honing their skills and approach to playing rugby.

Nepia

@shark said in 2021 School rugby:

@stargazer said in 2021 School rugby:

@shark Except, that in towns like Napier and Hastings the majority of talent is not funneled into the 2 dominant schools (Napier & Hastings Boys). We also have schools in the next tier (CNI) in Lindisfarne and St John's. These schools won't make the Top 4, but still attract local talent and have produced All Blacks & Super Rugby players. To use a rough calculation similar to yours: a combined Napier & Hastings population of approx. 115,000 is spread among 4 schools.

The same applies to schools in Hamilton, Palmerston North (Feilding HS, for example) and New Plymouth (Francis Douglas MC). I don't know about Gisborne, Tauranga and Rotorua.

Your counter argument apples to Hamilton certainly and probably the HB structure but my point stands re several of the other centres and their contribution to the strength of the Super 8. Tauranga has 150,000 people and how many strong schools? Palmy 82,000 and just one other decent school? Rotorua 58k and just one good school? New Plymouth has two competitive colleges in it's 58k so their playing strength is fairly spread. Gisborne is smaller than Nelson so I'll remove their example from the reckoning.

The point is, several of these population bases are significant and a lot of local talent goes to the dominant rugby school, which helps to raise the level of the competition and also raise the chances of the Super 8 schools competing to a high level in the Top 4.

That's 5 of the 8 schools that can be removed from the reckoning.

Hardly a huge advantage over the South Island spread of population and schools.

taniwharugby

we lose* so many players to (mainly) Auckland/Waikato schools, and then WBHS removed themselves from the Whangarei comp, which left many of the other schools up here without good competition, which has hampered it, to the point the WBHS 2nd 15 will dispatch the other High Schools up here.

*some are enticed by scholarships, others just leave for better schooling/sporting opportunities, been happening since forever.

Nepia

@taniwharugby said in 2021 School rugby:

we lose* so many players to (mainly) Auckland/Waikato schools, and then WBHS removed themselves from the Whangarei comp, which left many of the other schools up here without good competition, which has hampered it, to the point the WBHS 2nd 15 will dispatch the other High Schools up here.

*some are enticed by scholarships, others just leave for better schooling/sporting opportunities, been happening since forever.

What comp do WBHS play in now? Harbour? U21s?

We lose players from HB to Auckland as well, despite the standard of competition around here.

taniwharugby

@nepia yeah the North Harbour one, TBF it has helped them retain some players and improved the standard of WBHS, but some still go to Auckland schools.

Stargazer

Fixtures - Saturday, 22 May 2021:

Preseason/traditionals/sports exchanges:

Hastings BHS v Scots College - cancelled
St Pat's Wngtn v Napier BHS - 1.00pm (Evans Bay)
St Pat's Silverstream v Palmerston North BHS - 2.00pm (Silverstream 1) - livestreamed on https://sideline.live/play/14598

Auckland 1A
Round 1

Kelston BHS v St Kentigern - 2.30pm - LIVE on Sky Sport 4
Mt Albert Grammar v Sacred Heart College - 2.30pm
Aorere College v Kings College - 2.30pm
Dilworth School v Tangaroa College - 2.30pm
Liston College v De La Salle College - 2.30pm
St Peter's College v Auckland Grammar - 2.30pm

Harbour 1A
Round 3

Westlake BHS v Rangitoto College - 12.00pm
Takapuna Grammar v Whangarei BHS - 12.00pm
Orewa College v Massey HS - 12.00pm
Rosmini College v Manurewa HS - 12.00pm

Central North Island
Round 2

Wesley College v Lindisfarne College - 12.00pm (2nd XV at 9.15am)
St Peter's Cambridge v Whanganui Collegiate - 11.00am
St John's (Hamilton) v Francis Douglas MC - 11.00am
Feilding HS v St John's (Hastings) - 12.00pm
Rathkeale College v St Paul's Collegiate - 10.30am

Super 8
competition starts 12/6

Wellington Premiership
competition starts 8/6?

Miles Toyota Championship & Cup
Round 3

St Thomas College v Marlborough BC - 11.00am
Mid Canterbury combined v Christ’s College - 12.00pm
Nelson College v St Bede's College - 12.00pm
Timaru BHS v Waimea combined - 12.00pm
Rangiora HS v Roncalli combined - 1.00pm
Shirley BHS v Selwyn Schools Combined - 2.45pm
St Andrews College v Christchurch BHS - 2.45pm

Otago Premier Schools (Premiership)
Round 2

Southland Boys v Otago Boys (Wed 19 May 2021, 1.15pm - postponed)
John McGlashan v King's HS - 12.45pm
St Kevin's v Dunstan HS - 1.00pm

Otago Premier Schools (Championship)

Otago Combined Co-Ed v Wakatipu BHS - 12.45pm
Otago BHS 2nd XV v Waitaki BHS - 12.45pm
South Otago HS v Mt Aspiring College - 1.00pm

Nepia

@taniwharugby said in 2021 School rugby:

@nepia yeah the North Harbour one, TBF it has helped them retain some players and improved the standard of WBHS, but some still go to Auckland schools.

Same in HB when the Super 8 started, the gap between Hastings and Napier jumped - but Lindersfarne seems to be on a bit of resurgence through the old ~~chequebook~~, sorry scholarship programme.

Were there other strong schools back in the day?

The Blues and Chiefs are feilding an entire Hawkes Bay back three this weekend who were "lost" to Auckland schools in the Sullivans and Lowe.

taniwharugby

@nepia Boys High & Kamo High were both strong* then Kaitaia College, Dargaville, BOI College would have good teams from time to time.

*strong being relative, I mean some quality players went through (my last year there was half a dozen that went on to play rep rugby/league, Kamo had multiple that year too) but as was always the case, we'd do visits with Auckland teams and get smoked.

Bovidae

How did Josh Beehre end up at Hastings?

Nepia

@bovidae said in 2021 School rugby:

How did Josh Beehre end up at Hastings?

No idea. The Hastings chequebook is pretty slim.

shark

@nepia Or you can view it as three significant population bases the likes of which the upper SI doesn't have, each of which has a dominant school of a high standard. Combined with the other schools, this creates a seriously advantageous comp.

In order to gain parity with the Super 8 we'd have to combine Nelson College and Marlborough Boy's College together, have just five schools from Christchurch taking all the talent, combine all the Hanan Shield district schools together and add OBHS and SBHS and a combined team of Kings, McGlashan and Cavanagh. That'd give us a SI Super Ten.

taniwharugby

@bovidae do you know how the challenge for this cup come about?

Seemed all very last minute, and then WBHS are back playing Taka today.

Bovidae

@taniwharugby

The Moascar Cup is the schoolboy Ranfurly Shield so all home games are automatic challenges, as well as the Top 4 games if the holder is involved. I think teams are also expected to have a certain number of other games during the season where the MC is up for grabs. It could be that RBHS was selective in the challenge they accepted.

Nepia

@shark said in 2021 School rugby:

@nepia Or you can view it as three significant population bases the likes of which the upper SI doesn't have, each of which has a dominant school of a high standard. Combined with the other schools, this creates a seriously advantageous comp.

In order to gain parity with the Super 8 we'd have to combine Nelson College and Marlborough Boy's College together, have just five schools from Christchurch taking all the talent, combine all the Hanan Shield district schools together and add OBHS and SBHS and a combined team of Kings, McGlashan and Cavanagh. That'd give us a SI Super Ten.

I actually don't know what the argument is any more. You were questioning whether Super 8 deserved to be ranked second best schools comp (I think the data shows that for at least two decades it's been the best) and that's now morphed into why South Island isn't the best.

Also, I don't think you need to combine Nelson College and Malborough Boys into one - they have bigger rolls than Hastings and Gisborne.

Bovidae

Kelston too big, too physical for a young St Kents side winning 44-7. Plenty of verbals during the game.

The Kelston forwards were very impressive, none more so than a no.8 called Lauaki.

shark

@nepia said in 2021 School rugby:

@shark said in 2021 School rugby:

@nepia Or you can view it as three significant population bases the likes of which the upper SI doesn't have, each of which has a dominant school of a high standard. Combined with the other schools, this creates a seriously advantageous comp.

In order to gain parity with the Super 8 we'd have to combine Nelson College and Marlborough Boy's College together, have just five schools from Christchurch taking all the talent, combine all the Hanan Shield district schools together and add OBHS and SBHS and a combined team of Kings, McGlashan and Cavanagh. That'd give us a SI Super Ten.

I actually don't know what the argument is any more. You were questioning whether Super 8 deserved to be ranked second best schools comp (I think the data shows that for at least two decades it's been the best) and that's now morphed into why South Island isn't the best.

Also, I don't think you need to combine Nelson College and Malborough Boys into one - they have bigger rolls than Hastings and Gisborne.

I'm just pointing out why the Super 8 is strong, and and why you don't see a lot of SI success in the Top Four of late. The Super 8 is the cream of the talent across a vast swathe of the North Island. Meanwhile the South Island (probably with a lesser population than Waikato, BOP, Hawkes Bay, Manawatu and Taranaki) is split into two regions and as such is seriously diluted. In order to create a a decent sized comp, the Miles Championship has to include teams such as Roncalli, Aoraki Combined, Selwyn combined and Waimea combined. You're just not going to get as good a standard when every second week is a romp.

Stargazer

Results - Saturday, 22 May 2021: