2021 School rugby
-
Can't argue with the results. But I can point out an imbalance which helps the Super 8's strength comparative to the SI and Wellington.
The Super 8 brings together teams from eight major centres in Hamilton, Tauranga, Rotorua, Napier, Hastings, Gisborne, Palmerston North and New Plymouth. Most of these cities have a dominant school and most of the local talent is likely sucked into a small pool of schools in those NI areas. Success breeding success. Comparatively, the Upper SI comp has 7 greater Christchurch schools and of the other areas represented only Nelson comes close to comparing in population to those towns. In terms of structure, many of those NI schools' competitive advantage compares most closely to Dunedin with one clearly dominant school, one traditional but consistently lesser rival in Kings HS and not much else from McGlashan and Cavanagh. So it's little surprise that OBHS are the only SI school to have made a national final in a long time.
Sure, CBHS has been pretty dominant locally, has much larger roll than any other traditional Christchurch rugby school and has produced a vast number of All Blacks, but the talent is also spread amongst St Bedes, St Andrews and Christ's predominantly, plus St Thomas's and Shirley. Rangiora has also emerged in recent years. So the playing pool is spread largely among those 7 schools in a region counting approx 400,000. Compare that to playing talent being funneled into a dominant school in a city of say 70,000, and multiply that and put them in a competition together and it's little wonder the Super 8 does well. If the majority of the talent in Canterbury was funneled into 5 schools rather than 7 you'd no doubt see a different standard.
-
@shark Except, that in towns like Napier and Hastings the majority of talent is not funneled into the 2 dominant schools (Napier & Hastings Boys). We also have schools in the next tier (CNI) in Lindisfarne and St John's. These schools won't make the Top 4, but still attract local talent and have produced All Blacks & Super Rugby players. To use a rough calculation similar to yours: a combined Napier & Hastings population of approx. 115,000 is spread among 4 schools.
The same applies to schools in Hamilton, Palmerston North (Feilding HS, for example) and New Plymouth (Francis Douglas MC). I don't know about Gisborne, Tauranga and Rotorua.
-
@shark said in 2021 School rugby:
So it's little surprise that OBHS are the only SI school to have made a national final in a long time.
It's actually been a while since the SI school won a game at the Top 4 (including the 3rd/4th game). Nelson didn't in 2019, nor Christchurch BHS the year before.
In the Waikato there are 3 strong rugby schools. St Paul's Collegiate (the equivalent of your Christ's) has dominated the CNI competition. St Peter's Cambridge won consecutive Top 4 co-ed titles a few years back. St John's have also had their strong seasons.
-
-
@taniwharugby Yes, Tim Seifert went there.
They are involved in all sports and have attracted a lot of top quality coaches ($$$). Ricki Herbert was there a while back to run their football programme.
Very strong in basketball, golf, cycling (next to the Avantidrome), rowing and equestrian.
-
@shark Considering the discussion was about what was the "second" strongest school's competition, it's not that relevant to discuss how good a competition would be if other factors existed. Yep, you could apply little tweaks to the Canterbury competition to make the schools stronger, but as @stargazer notes you can do the same in Hawkes Bay as well. At any rate, Chch had a pretty good run in the mid 2000s winning three top 4s in a row.
You blokes dominate at NPC level and franchise level, I'm sure you can handle not being dominant at schools level.
@Stargazer There's also Te Aute as well that would pick up the odd few players that might be useful to Hastings.
-
@bovidae said in 2021 School rugby:
@shark said in 2021 School rugby:
So it's little surprise that OBHS are the only SI school to have made a national final in a long time.
It's actually been a while since the SI school won a game at the Top 4 (including the 3rd/4th game). Nelson didn't in 2019, nor Christchurch BHS the year before.
In the Waikato there are 3 strong rugby schools. St Paul's Collegiate (the equivalent of your Christ's) has dominated the CNI competition. St Peter's Cambridge won consecutive Top 4 co-ed titles a few years back. St John's have also had their strong seasons.
Do those teams play Hamilton Boys first XV these days?
-
@nepia Usually. Ham BHS played St Paul's 2 weeks ago. Often they play them as pre-season games before the Super 8 starts. In the past they have also played to find the Waikato school that goes forward to be involved in the Chiefs playoffs for the Top 4.
-
@nepia Yeah, I thought about Te Aute, but didn't mention it because they aren't competing in CNI anymore and are now more similar (in strength) to the other schools that compete in the Hawke's Bay school competition (like Wairoa College, Central HB College, Taradale HS etc). Tbh, they've been pretty bad in recent years. I think Te Aute attracts students for reasons not related to rugby, and not just from the province, but from all over the country (like in the past, Karl Te Nana, Piri Weepu, Kane Hames etc).
-
@stargazer said in 2021 School rugby:
@shark Except, that in towns like Napier and Hastings the majority of talent is not funneled into the 2 dominant schools (Napier & Hastings Boys). We also have schools in the next tier (CNI) in Lindisfarne and St John's. These schools won't make the Top 4, but still attract local talent and have produced All Blacks & Super Rugby players. To use a rough calculation similar to yours: a combined Napier & Hastings population of approx. 115,000 is spread among 4 schools.
The same applies to schools in Hamilton, Palmerston North (Feilding HS, for example) and New Plymouth (Francis Douglas MC). I don't know about Gisborne, Tauranga and Rotorua.
Your counter argument apples to Hamilton certainly and probably the HB structure but my point stands re several of the other centres and their contribution to the strength of the Super 8. Tauranga has 150,000 people and how many strong schools? Palmy 82,000 and just one other decent school? Rotorua 58k and just one good school? New Plymouth has two competitive colleges in it's 58k so their playing strength is fairly spread. Gisborne is smaller than Nelson so I'll remove their example from the reckoning.
The point is, several of these population bases are significant and a lot of local talent goes to the dominant rugby school, which helps to raise the level of the competition and also raise the chances of the Super 8 schools competing to a high level in the Top 4.
-
-
@shark said in 2021 School rugby:
@stargazer said in 2021 School rugby:
@shark Except, that in towns like Napier and Hastings the majority of talent is not funneled into the 2 dominant schools (Napier & Hastings Boys). We also have schools in the next tier (CNI) in Lindisfarne and St John's. These schools won't make the Top 4, but still attract local talent and have produced All Blacks & Super Rugby players. To use a rough calculation similar to yours: a combined Napier & Hastings population of approx. 115,000 is spread among 4 schools.
The same applies to schools in Hamilton, Palmerston North (Feilding HS, for example) and New Plymouth (Francis Douglas MC). I don't know about Gisborne, Tauranga and Rotorua.
Your counter argument apples to Hamilton certainly and probably the HB structure but my point stands re several of the other centres and their contribution to the strength of the Super 8. Tauranga has 150,000 people and how many strong schools? Palmy 82,000 and just one other decent school? Rotorua 58k and just one good school? New Plymouth has two competitive colleges in it's 58k so their playing strength is fairly spread. Gisborne is smaller than Nelson so I'll remove their example from the reckoning.
The point is, several of these population bases are significant and a lot of local talent goes to the dominant rugby school, which helps to raise the level of the competition and also raise the chances of the Super 8 schools competing to a high level in the Top 4.
That's 5 of the 8 schools that can be removed from the reckoning.
Hardly a huge advantage over the South Island spread of population and schools.
-
we lose* so many players to (mainly) Auckland/Waikato schools, and then WBHS removed themselves from the Whangarei comp, which left many of the other schools up here without good competition, which has hampered it, to the point the WBHS 2nd 15 will dispatch the other High Schools up here.
*some are enticed by scholarships, others just leave for better schooling/sporting opportunities, been happening since forever.
-
@taniwharugby said in 2021 School rugby:
we lose* so many players to (mainly) Auckland/Waikato schools, and then WBHS removed themselves from the Whangarei comp, which left many of the other schools up here without good competition, which has hampered it, to the point the WBHS 2nd 15 will dispatch the other High Schools up here.
*some are enticed by scholarships, others just leave for better schooling/sporting opportunities, been happening since forever.
What comp do WBHS play in now? Harbour? U21s?
We lose players from HB to Auckland as well, despite the standard of competition around here.
-
@nepia yeah the North Harbour one, TBF it has helped them retain some players and improved the standard of WBHS, but some still go to Auckland schools.
-
Fixtures - Saturday, 22 May 2021:
Preseason/traditionals/sports exchanges:
- Hastings BHS v Scots College - cancelled
- St Pat's Wngtn v Napier BHS - 1.00pm (Evans Bay)
- St Pat's Silverstream v Palmerston North BHS - 2.00pm (Silverstream 1) -
livestreamed on https://sideline.live/play/14598
Auckland 1A
Round 1- Kelston BHS v St Kentigern - 2.30pm -
LIVE on Sky Sport 4 - Mt Albert Grammar v Sacred Heart College - 2.30pm
- Aorere College v Kings College - 2.30pm
- Dilworth School v Tangaroa College - 2.30pm
- Liston College v De La Salle College - 2.30pm
- St Peter's College v Auckland Grammar - 2.30pm
Harbour 1A
Round 3- Westlake BHS v Rangitoto College - 12.00pm
- Takapuna Grammar v Whangarei BHS - 12.00pm
- Orewa College v Massey HS - 12.00pm
- Rosmini College v Manurewa HS - 12.00pm
Central North Island
Round 2- Wesley College v Lindisfarne College - 12.00pm (2nd XV at 9.15am)
- St Peter's Cambridge v Whanganui Collegiate - 11.00am
- St John's (Hamilton) v Francis Douglas MC - 11.00am
- Feilding HS v St John's (Hastings) - 12.00pm
- Rathkeale College v St Paul's Collegiate - 10.30am
Super 8
competition starts 12/6
Wellington Premiership
competition starts 8/6?
Miles Toyota Championship & Cup
Round 3- St Thomas College v Marlborough BC - 11.00am
- Mid Canterbury combined v Christ’s College - 12.00pm
- Nelson College v St Bede's College - 12.00pm
- Timaru BHS v Waimea combined - 12.00pm
- Rangiora HS v Roncalli combined - 1.00pm
- Shirley BHS v Selwyn Schools Combined - 2.45pm
- St Andrews College v Christchurch BHS - 2.45pm
Otago Premier Schools (Premiership)
Round 2- Southland Boys v Otago Boys (Wed 19 May 2021, 1.15pm - postponed)
- John McGlashan v King's HS - 12.45pm
- St Kevin's v Dunstan HS - 1.00pm
Otago Premier Schools (Championship)
- Otago Combined Co-Ed v Wakatipu BHS - 12.45pm
- Otago BHS 2nd XV v Waitaki BHS - 12.45pm
- South Otago HS v Mt Aspiring College - 1.00pm
-
@taniwharugby said in 2021 School rugby:
@nepia yeah the North Harbour one, TBF it has helped them retain some players and improved the standard of WBHS, but some still go to Auckland schools.
Same in HB when the Super 8 started, the gap between Hastings and Napier jumped - but Lindersfarne seems to be on a bit of resurgence through the old
chequebook, sorry scholarship programme.Were there other strong schools back in the day?
The Blues and Chiefs are feilding an entire Hawkes Bay back three this weekend who were "lost" to Auckland schools in the Sullivans and Lowe.
-
@nepia Boys High & Kamo High were both strong* then Kaitaia College, Dargaville, BOI College would have good teams from time to time.
*strong being relative, I mean some quality players went through (my last year there was half a dozen that went on to play rep rugby/league, Kamo had multiple that year too) but as was always the case, we'd do visits with Auckland teams and get smoked.
