The GOAT
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@shark i don't disagree with anything you said there, this is the most subjective argument in sports, and is best done over 10 schooners.
I'm not hanging my hat on Brady at all, but it's a pretty good argument.
The only thing with the "best athletes" thing is the number of elite level athletes from other sports that have given it a go and been waaaay off the mark. Yes it's a sharp learning curve, but athletically they are not there either. Not big enough, not fast enough, not powerful enough. Jarryd Hayne when he went was an elite NRL player who embarrassed guys with his running. He got there and looked like a park football player.
Again, i am not trying to say the NFL is the best athletes from anywhere, i am just saying that they are still probably the best athletes for their particular sport.
My GOAT definition, which will differ to others is, do you dominate your particular sport? And the reason it is so subjective is, in most cases the sport itself cannot decide who its best player is.
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Deion Sanders played NFL and MLB on the same weekend at times. In the pro era. That's fucking unreal.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@shark i don't disagree with anything you said there, this is the most subjective argument in sports, and is best done over 10 schooners.
I'm not hanging my hat on Brady at all, but it's a pretty good argument.
The only thing with the "best athletes" thing is the number of elite level athletes from other sports that have given it a go and been waaaay off the mark. Yes it's a sharp learning curve, but athletically they are not there either. Not big enough, not fast enough, not powerful enough. Jarryd Hayne when he went was an elite NRL player who embarrassed guys with his running. He got there and looked like a park football player.
Again, i am not trying to say the NFL is the best athletes from anywhere, i am just saying that they are still probably the best athletes for their particular sport.
My GOAT definition, which will differ to others is, do you dominate your particular sport? And the reason it is so subjective is, in most cases the sport itself cannot decide who its best player is.
This is a good thread, because everyone interprets it a bit differently. I think we should also talk about GOAT team and GOAT individual (then perhaps compare), but for me I like to think of whether I would have that person play / throw / kick / swing / pass for my life. Even that doesn't quite catch what I'm talking about, but it's the idea that on the absolute biggest stage, even when under huge pressure, they can find a way to win.
IMO, it has to be a sport that also has a huge mental aspect because otherwise (relatively) simple physical characteristics can get you over the line (especially with good sports science and nutrition). For that reason I can't go down the Bolt route, despite him perhaps being the best athlete ever. However, he's never had a Rumble in the Jungle or needed a Thrilla in Manilla, so even though he's an incredibly athletic individual, I can't see him as the GOATiest, because hig sport doesn't really allow people to draw upon the mental aspect in that same way that other sports do.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
Deion Sanders played NFL and MLB on the same weekend at times. In the pro era. That's fucking unreal.
He and Bo Jackson are the last 2 great dual sportsman
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The NRL is becoming a bit like the NFL in that so much hinges on the two halves and more and more. The halves are being regarded as the most dominant players because they're so heavily involved in plays, they're the most influential and therefore most sought after players. They may not be the best athletes but more and more will be the most valuable player and the best will win titles. By default, the NRL GOAT argument will lean heavily towards the likes of Cronk, Johns, Langer, Lewis etc and other guys who are extremely dominant in their position but either don't see as much ball or haven't won as many titles will be forgotten. Greg Inglis could be a good example. And it's the same in the NFL. I don't know enough about the sport to know who, but surely there are multiple title-winners in other positions who have been just as dominant, are probably better athletes, but don't get the kudos a QB does.
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@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
Wayne Gretzky
Babe Ruth@KiwiMurph and @Godder as someone who has watched the NHL avidly since the late 70's, I can't agree with Gretzky.
I'd take Mario Lemieux over Gretzky every time and IMHO, he was the best player I've ever seen.
Lemieux was a much more complete player than Gretzky was and for most of his career, didn't have the same quality of players around him. Hell, Mario even dropped the gloves on a number of occasions.
And Mario's stats on a per game basis top Wayne's in most of the key areas:
Lemieux holds the record for the highest career points-per-game average (2.005) and the highest career goals-per-game average (.823).Add to that he overcame Hodgkin's lymphoma and played whilst undergoing radiation therapy for this is just mind blowing!
And yeah, I have some experiance with this being diagnosed with lymphoma 1 year ago.
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I don't know enough about the sport to know who, but surely there are multiple title-winners in other positions who have been just as dominant, are probably better athletes, but don't get the kudos a QB does.
Charles Haley comes to mind. A dominant linebacker/DE for the 49ers and Cowboys in the 1980s and 1990s. He won 5 titles, second to Brady.
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I don't know enough about the sport to know who, but surely there are multiple title-winners in other positions who have been just as dominant, are probably better athletes, but don't get the kudos a QB does.
Charles Haley comes to mind. A dominant linebacker/DE for the 49ers and Cowboys in the 1980s and 1990s. He won 5 titles, second to Brady.
To further emphasise the point, as a casual NFL fan, I've never heard of the bloke.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
in my opinion of course
with regards to team sports, there isn't another position in any sport that is under more scrutiny than the NFL quarterback. In a squad of 50-odd guys, you are the man. You get the money. The entire winning and losing of the organisation rests on you.
Brady built the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. Left it at 43, and immediately won with another team. Playing the prime position still at the very elite level.
He is the main man and should get his dues. But football isn't basketball. Brady did his part but that defence was huge. This is not MJ single-handedly dominating big games
that's a myth too. One great guy doesn't win you a ring, even if he is 20% of the team on the court. Jordan was amazing, but needed other guys to step up (pippen, Rodman, game winning shots by Kerr). There are a lot of NBA teams with one great guy who don't win because he needs help (see the Warriors this year). Look at a season and see how many games are won when one guy gets a shitload. What did Curry score the other day in a loss?
All good points. MJ could dominate and influence a game more than Brady I would still argue. But they both have that ultracompetitive streak. And Tom wins the GOAT with the hottest wife stakes by the length of the straight and some
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@shark i don't disagree with anything you said there, this is the most subjective argument in sports, and is best done over 10 schooners.
I'm not hanging my hat on Brady at all, but it's a pretty good argument.
The only thing with the "best athletes" thing is the number of elite level athletes from other sports that have given it a go and been waaaay off the mark. Yes it's a sharp learning curve, but athletically they are not there either. **Not big enough, not fast enough, not powerful enough. Jarryd Hayne when he went was an elite NRL player who embarrassed guys with his running. He got there and looked like a park football player.
**
Again, i am not trying to say the NFL is the best athletes from anywhere, i am just saying that they are still probably the best athletes for their particular sport.My GOAT definition, which will differ to others is, do you dominate your particular sport? And the reason it is so subjective is, in most cases the sport itself cannot decide who its best player is.
Agreed but he'd still be running round in the 80th minute in league when Football players would be on the sidelines looking for oxygen.
Apples and Oranges.
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There are only a handful of team sports that have true worldwide appeal, and the NFL isn't one of them.
If you are picking an all-time GOAT I'd be looking at an individual athlete.
Possibly a fair point which would rule Bradman and Phil the Power out unless you happen to have a look at their numbers as a random fan and judge them on that.
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There are only a handful of team sports that have true worldwide appeal, and the NFL isn't one of them.
If you are picking an all-time GOAT I'd be looking at an individual athlete.
Possibly a fair point which would rule Bradman and Phil the Power out unless you happen to have a look at their numbers as a random fan and judge them on that.
There only a handful of global team sports, football and basketball the two true ones. That just leaves solo pursuits like athletics
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There are only a handful of team sports that have true worldwide appeal, and the NFL isn't one of them.
If you are picking an all-time GOAT I'd be looking at an individual athlete.
Possibly a fair point which would rule Bradman and Phil the Power out unless you happen to have a look at their numbers as a random fan and judge them on that.
There only a handful of global team sports, football and basketball the two true ones. That just leaves solo pursuits like athletics
If you look at it that way then yeah a team winning the football world cup is hugely impressive. Shit the All Whites got nominated for awards for just qualifying. Same with anytime the Tall Blacks do well. Rugby is growing but it's gone from five teams who could have won the WC ( 10-20 years ago ) to maybe.....well still under ten.....
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
in my opinion of course
with regards to team sports, there isn't another position in any sport that is under more scrutiny than the NFL quarterback. In a squad of 50-odd guys, you are the man. You get the money. The entire winning and losing of the organisation rests on you.
Brady built the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. Left it at 43, and immediately won with another team. Playing the prime position still at the very elite level.
He is the main man and should get his dues. But football isn't basketball. Brady did his part but that defence was huge. This is not MJ single-handedly dominating big games
that's a myth too. One great guy doesn't win you a ring, even if he is 20% of the team on the court. Jordan was amazing, but needed other guys to step up (pippen, Rodman, game winning shots by Kerr). There are a lot of NBA teams with one great guy who don't win because he needs help (see the Warriors this year). Look at a season and see how many games are won when one guy gets a shitload. What did Curry score the other day in a loss?
All good points. MJ could dominate and influence a game more than Brady I would still argue. But they both have that ultracompetitive streak. And Tom wins the GOAT with the hottest wife stakes by the length of the straight and some
The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
in my opinion of course
with regards to team sports, there isn't another position in any sport that is under more scrutiny than the NFL quarterback. In a squad of 50-odd guys, you are the man. You get the money. The entire winning and losing of the organisation rests on you.
Brady built the greatest dynasty the NFL has ever seen. Left it at 43, and immediately won with another team. Playing the prime position still at the very elite level.
He is the main man and should get his dues. But football isn't basketball. Brady did his part but that defence was huge. This is not MJ single-handedly dominating big games
that's a myth too. One great guy doesn't win you a ring, even if he is 20% of the team on the court. Jordan was amazing, but needed other guys to step up (pippen, Rodman, game winning shots by Kerr). There are a lot of NBA teams with one great guy who don't win because he needs help (see the Warriors this year). Look at a season and see how many games are won when one guy gets a shitload. What did Curry score the other day in a loss?
All good points. MJ could dominate and influence a game more than Brady I would still argue. But they both have that ultracompetitive streak. And Tom wins the GOAT with the hottest wife stakes by the length of the straight and some
The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
Yup. And you can't stop him making triple doubles etc filling the stat line
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Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
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Good call Piers ( even if you are a dick half the time )
PIERS MORGAN: Tom Brady doesn't make my Top 10 sporting GOATs
All hail King Tom Brady! The superstar quarter-back's record-breaking 7th Super Bowl victory yesterday means he's now won it more times than any NFL franchise, let alone any other player.
