The GOAT
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This is great thread.
The GOAT has to take into account whether the sport is played universally, Is a team sport, can be compared across history or relies on technology. Even the latter is tricky as it's a skill in itself to get the best out of your kit (Damon Hill was a pretty average F1 driver but acknowledged to be one of the best ever at developing a car).
Then there's longevity and competing in different parts of the world and conditions - how do you factor that in? How do you compare different era's and use of different ball/bats etc?
So for me, it has to be the greatest in something like Athletics, Soccer, Tennis, Judo or swimming. And getting headlines like MJ did shouldn't count. Was he a greater sportsman than Redgrave (5 Golds in 5 consecutive Olympics) because he was more famous and made more money?
Someone like Pele, Bolt, Federer, Mark Spitz, Teddy Riner for me.
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Did you even watch the game? Are you disputing the dominance of the Bucs D line against the Chiefs O? If so, I'm wasting my time arguing here.
I couldn't give a toss what happened during the season, my point is that in this game, the dominance shown by the Bucs D, was the equivalent of a massively dominant forward pack in rugby, totally limiting anything the backs (or a QB) could do.
I am wasting my time as you aren't countering any counterpoint and just reiterating the same thing over and over. If you actually read, we don't even disagree on much. We only disagree on how things MAY have played out if roles reversed.
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
Twelve months ago the same Tom Brady and the Patriots lost 20-13 to a 6th seed Wild Card Titans at home in the first round of the playoffs.
He threw 0 touchdowns and 1 interception in that game.
There's a reason Brady left the Patriots.
Brady went from a team that had a great system but marginal talent to one of the most talented teams in the NFC.
Brady has lost Super Bowls himself due to his offensive line not holding up - see both Super Bowls he lost to the Giants.
Again, what's your point? There isn't a single potential GOAT who hasn't had serious downs and learned from them to be named as potential greats.
Neither of us have a clue what would have happened in a role reverse situation. I simply believe that Brady would have used his experience / years to try and changes things. Why? Because that is what GOAT players do.
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Fuck tennis, it's a shit sport played by piston wristed gibbons.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I'm not sure what's worse - blaming Mahomes for Chiefs abysmal offensive line or equating Merhts to Tom Brady....
Thanks for the value add to the discussion.
You saying you can't blame the QB for an offensive line?
Don't get pissy because someone points out the gaping flaw in your "analysis". One player is afforded time in the pocket to make decisions and that time isn't as a result of his actions.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The GOAT:
This is great thread.
The GOAT has to take into account whether the sport is played universally, Is a team sport, can be compared across history or relies on technology. Even the latter is tricky as it's a skill in itself to get the best out of your kit (Damon Hill was a pretty average F1 driver but acknowledged to be one of the best ever at developing a car).
Then there's longevity and competing in different parts of the world and conditions - how do you factor that in? How do you compare different era's and use of different ball/bats etc?
So for me, it has to be the greatest in something like Athletics, Soccer, Tennis, Judo or swimming. And getting headlines like MJ did shouldn't count. Was he a greater sportsman than Redgrave (5 Golds in 5 consecutive Olympics) because he was more famous and made more money?
Someone like Pele, Bolt, Federer, Mark Spitz, Teddy Riner for me.
The Pyramid of Excellence has to be a factor
Sir Steve Redgrave was exceptional - athletic & mental ability, longevity, success - but his pyramid of excellence in rowing compared with Jordan's pyramid in basketball is akin to a piece of Toblerone compared with the Great Pyramid of Giza .
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
Did you even watch the game? Are you disputing the dominance of the Bucs D line against the Chiefs O? If so, I'm wasting my time arguing here.
I couldn't give a toss what happened during the season, my point is that in this game, the dominance shown by the Bucs D, was the equivalent of a massively dominant forward pack in rugby, totally limiting anything the backs (or a QB) could do.
I am wasting my time as you aren't countering any counterpoint and just reiterating the same thing over and over. If you actually read, we don't even disagree on much. We only disagree on how things MAY have played out if roles reversed.
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
Twelve months ago the same Tom Brady and the Patriots lost 20-13 to a 6th seed Wild Card Titans at home in the first round of the playoffs.
He threw 0 touchdowns and 1 interception in that game.
There's a reason Brady left the Patriots.
Brady went from a team that had a great system but marginal talent to one of the most talented teams in the NFC.
Brady has lost Super Bowls himself due to his offensive line not holding up - see both Super Bowls he lost to the Giants.
Again, what's your point? There isn't a single potential GOAT who hasn't had serious downs and learned from them to be named as potential greats.
Neither of us have a clue what would have happened in a role reverse situation. I simply believe that Brady would have used his experience / years to try and changes things. Why? Because that is what GOAT players do.
My point is that Brady has lost Super Bowls when his offensive line has been outplayed and he's never played behind an offensive line this bad in a Super Bowl.
Of the Chiefs 5 offensive lineman the Chiefs were missing 3 starters (all out injured) and the 5 lineman who started the game were made up of 2 players who went undrafted and 2 players who were drafted in the 7th round (the other was a 2nd rounder). Chiefs talent on the offensive line was awful.
If the Chiefs had rolled out that offensive line vs 49ers in last year's Super Bowl it would have been a similar story (obviously Jimmy G is nowhere near as good as Brady).
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@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
Did you even watch the game? Are you disputing the dominance of the Bucs D line against the Chiefs O? If so, I'm wasting my time arguing here.
I couldn't give a toss what happened during the season, my point is that in this game, the dominance shown by the Bucs D, was the equivalent of a massively dominant forward pack in rugby, totally limiting anything the backs (or a QB) could do.
I am wasting my time as you aren't countering any counterpoint and just reiterating the same thing over and over. If you actually read, we don't even disagree on much. We only disagree on how things MAY have played out if roles reversed.
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
Twelve months ago the same Tom Brady and the Patriots lost 20-13 to a 6th seed Wild Card Titans at home in the first round of the playoffs.
He threw 0 touchdowns and 1 interception in that game.
There's a reason Brady left the Patriots.
Brady went from a team that had a great system but marginal talent to one of the most talented teams in the NFC.
Brady has lost Super Bowls himself due to his offensive line not holding up - see both Super Bowls he lost to the Giants.
Again, what's your point? There isn't a single potential GOAT who hasn't had serious downs and learned from them to be named as potential greats.
Neither of us have a clue what would have happened in a role reverse situation. I simply believe that Brady would have used his experience / years to try and changes things. Why? Because that is what GOAT players do.
My point is that Brady has lost Super Bowls when his offensive line has been outplayed and he's never played behind an offensive line this bad in a Super Bowl.
Of the Chiefs 5 offensive lineman the Chiefs were missing 3 starters (all out injured) and the 5 lineman who started the game were made up of 2 players who went undrafted and 2 players who were drafted in the 7th round (the other was a 2nd rounder). Chiefs talent on the offensive line was awful.
If the Chiefs had rolled out that offensive line vs 49ers in last year's Super Bowl it would have been a similar story (obviously Jimmy G is nowhere near as good as Brady).
Jimmy G wouldn't have needed to be, SF would have their brilliant run game
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I'm not sure what's worse - blaming Mahomes for Chiefs abysmal offensive line or equating Merhts to Tom Brady....
Thanks for the value add to the discussion.
You saying you can't blame the QB for an offensive line?
Don't get pissy because someone points out the gaping flaw in your "analysis". One player is afforded time in the pocket to make decisions and that time isn't as a result of his actions.
More fantastic value add. I'm not getting pissy, quite far from it. I'm trying to get real responses to my thoughts and I found this particular response rather pathetic - a lame attempt at playing the man, not the ball. I thought you would understand drawing parallels, a quite common debating tactic.
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT
![😕](https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/assets/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/emoji-one/1f615.png?v=41lv32us19q ":\")
My point is that Brady has lost Super Bowls when his offensive line has been outplayed and he's never played behind an offensive line this bad in a Super Bowl.
Of the Chiefs 5 offensive lineman the Chiefs were missing 3 starters (all out injured) and the 5 lineman who started the game were made up of 2 players who went undrafted and 2 players who were drafted in the 7th round (the other was a 2nd rounder). Chiefs talent on the offensive line was awful.
If the Chiefs had rolled out that offensive line vs 49ers in last year's Super Bowl it would have been a similar story (obviously Jimmy G is nowhere near as good as Brady).
And yet, KC were favourites going in. So were all the guys who make up the odds completely wrong, or are things being rewritten? Or was it simply expected that Mahomes was so god damn good that he could cover off all your reasonings above?
All genuine questions.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I'm not sure what's worse - blaming Mahomes for Chiefs abysmal offensive line or equating Merhts to Tom Brady....
Thanks for the value add to the discussion.
You saying you can't blame the QB for an offensive line?
Don't get pissy because someone points out the gaping flaw in your "analysis". One player is afforded time in the pocket to make decisions and that time isn't as a result of his actions.
More fantastic value add. I'm not getting pissy, quite far from it. I'm trying to get real responses to my thoughts and I found this particular response rather pathetic - a lame attempt at playing the man, not the ball.
The irony is palpable. You're ignoring the very point made by numerous posters that destroys your argument: factors outside Brady's control afforded him the opportunity to look better than his opposite.
Meanwhile you're the same fluffybunny deriding the posts of others, so you're in no position to be complaining about playing the man.
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@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I'm not sure what's worse - blaming Mahomes for Chiefs abysmal offensive line or equating Merhts to Tom Brady....
Thanks for the value add to the discussion.
You saying you can't blame the QB for an offensive line?
Don't get pissy because someone points out the gaping flaw in your "analysis". One player is afforded time in the pocket to make decisions and that time isn't as a result of his actions.
More fantastic value add. I'm not getting pissy, quite far from it. I'm trying to get real responses to my thoughts and I found this particular response rather pathetic - a lame attempt at playing the man, not the ball.
The irony is palpable. You're ignoring the very point made by numerous posters that destroys your argument: factors outside Brady's control afforded him the opportunity to look better than his opposite.
Meanwhile you're the same fluffybunny deriding the posts of others, so you're in no position to be complaining about playing the man.
Excuse me? What a complete load of shit. Just wow. Seriously, calling me a fluffybunny because of this. Has Baron stolen your login and returned?
I'm asking people to debate my points. When they are I'm discussing it. When they aren't, I'm pointing it out.
We are discussing, in theory, what would happen is Brady/Mahomes swapped roles. I think it's interesting and not worth getting upset over.
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@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
Thanks, good points. I still argue though the point is similar. That is Mahomes is that good he should have been able to at least look for a way around it, where as I didn't see that at all. I argue that Brady would have at least tried something - as you'd expect from a GOAT.
Anyway, it's all hearsay -neither of do and will ever know.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I'm not sure what's worse - blaming Mahomes for Chiefs abysmal offensive line or equating Merhts to Tom Brady....
Thanks for the value add to the discussion.
You saying you can't blame the QB for an offensive line?
Don't get pissy because someone points out the gaping flaw in your "analysis". One player is afforded time in the pocket to make decisions and that time isn't as a result of his actions.
More fantastic value add. I'm not getting pissy, quite far from it. I'm trying to get real responses to my thoughts and I found this particular response rather pathetic - a lame attempt at playing the man, not the ball.
The irony is palpable. You're ignoring the very point made by numerous posters that destroys your argument: factors outside Brady's control afforded him the opportunity to look better than his opposite.
Meanwhile you're the same fluffybunny deriding the posts of others, so you're in no position to be complaining about playing the man.
Excuse me? What a complete load of shit. Just wow. Seriously, calling me a fluffybunny because of this. Has Baron stolen your login and returned?
I'm asking people to debate my points. When they are I'm discussing it. When they aren't, I'm pointing it out.
No you weren't. Your point was debated and comprehensively dealt to, to which in an arrogant manner you responded with derision. Let me sum up your input:
You: "Mahomes should've done something different."
Others: "Well he couldn't because his team didn't provide him with the opportunity."
You: "value add post" -
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I'm not sure what's worse - blaming Mahomes for Chiefs abysmal offensive line or equating Merhts to Tom Brady....
Thanks for the value add to the discussion.
You saying you can't blame the QB for an offensive line?
Don't get pissy because someone points out the gaping flaw in your "analysis". One player is afforded time in the pocket to make decisions and that time isn't as a result of his actions.
More fantastic value add. I'm not getting pissy, quite far from it. I'm trying to get real responses to my thoughts and I found this particular response rather pathetic - a lame attempt at playing the man, not the ball.
The irony is palpable. You're ignoring the very point made by numerous posters that destroys your argument: factors outside Brady's control afforded him the opportunity to look better than his opposite.
Meanwhile you're the same fluffybunny deriding the posts of others, so you're in no position to be complaining about playing the man.
Excuse me? What a complete load of shit. Just wow. Seriously, calling me a fluffybunny because of this. Has Baron stolen your login and returned?
I'm asking people to debate my points. When they are I'm discussing it. When they aren't, I'm pointing it out.
No you weren't. Your point was debated and comprehensively dealt to, to which in an arrogant manner you responded with derision. Let me sum up your input:
You: "Mahomes should've done something different."
Others: "Well he couldn't because his team didn't provide him with the opportunity."
You: "value add post"Thats not my argument at all!! Honestly, take your fight picking elsewhere.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
Thanks, good points. I still argue though the point is similar. That is Mahomes is that good he should have been able to at least look for a way around it, where as I didn't see that at all. I argue that Brady would have at least tried something - as you'd expect from a GOAT.
Anyway, it's all hearsay -neither of do and will ever know.
The counter argument to that is that Mahomes mobility actually saved him from a far worse beating - he only ended up taking 3 sacks I think. It could have got seriously ugly with a non-mobile 43 year old Brady behind that line.
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Also, I've said may times I consider Richie a great AB but MJ a better player. I'd still take MJ for my 15.
Look I'm as big a MJ fan as anyone but know way he is in my 15. Phenomenal athlete but check out how he went when he tried baseball. You expect him to come to rugby and push McCaw out of his throne....
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@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
Thanks, good points. I still argue though the point is similar. That is Mahomes is that good he should have been able to at least look for a way around it, where as I didn't see that at all. I argue that Brady would have at least tried something - as you'd expect from a GOAT.
Anyway, it's all hearsay -neither of do and will ever know.
The counter argument to that is that Mahomes mobility actually saved him from a far worse beating - he only ended up taking 3 sacks I think. It could have got seriously ugly with a non-mobile 43 year old Brady behind that line.
Yeah, and that's where we disagree. We'll never know whose right/wrong but I would argue that Brady would ensure all the plays are based on quick distribution and set training moves. How many times did Mahomes take 3 steps back and set then look for runners. Something that had proven to be suicidal time and time again. I would argue that Brady's additional experience means he would have evaluated things differently and got his team to do something different.
Surely there is nobody better positioned to see exactly what is going wrong / right and where things can be exploited than the QB.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
Thanks, good points. I still argue though the point is similar. That is Mahomes is that good he should have been able to at least look for a way around it, where as I didn't see that at all. I argue that Brady would have at least tried something - as you'd expect from a GOAT.
Anyway, it's all hearsay -neither of do and will ever know.
The counter argument to that is that Mahomes mobility actually saved him from a far worse beating - he only ended up taking 3 sacks I think. It could have got seriously ugly with a non-mobile 43 year old Brady behind that line.
Yeah, and that's where we disagree. We'll never know whose right/wrong but I would argue that Brady would ensure all the plays are based on quick distribution and set training moves. How many times did Mahomes take 3 steps back and set then look for runners. Something that had proven to be suicidal time and time again. I would argue that Brady's additional experience means he would have evaluated things differently and got his team to do something different.
Surely there is nobody better positioned to see exactly what is going wrong / right and where things can be exploited than the QB.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. Mahomes was chased all night, and yet he threw two passes to his receivers in the end zone, only for both of them to do such a poor job of catching that they were hit in the facemask by the ball!! One of them Mahomes was diving horizontally to his side. It is no different to union, a 9 and 10 generally look as good as their forward pack allow them to look.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
Thanks, good points. I still argue though the point is similar. That is Mahomes is that good he should have been able to at least look for a way around it, where as I didn't see that at all. I argue that Brady would have at least tried something - as you'd expect from a GOAT.
Anyway, it's all hearsay -neither of do and will ever know.
The counter argument to that is that Mahomes mobility actually saved him from a far worse beating - he only ended up taking 3 sacks I think. It could have got seriously ugly with a non-mobile 43 year old Brady behind that line.
Yeah, and that's where we disagree. We'll never know whose right/wrong but I would argue that Brady would ensure all the plays are based on quick distribution and set training moves. How many times did Mahomes take 3 steps back and set then look for runners. Something that had proven to be suicidal time and time again. I would argue that Brady's additional experience means he would have evaluated things differently and got his team to do something different.
Surely there is nobody better positioned to see exactly what is going wrong / right and where things can be exploited than the QB.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. Mahomes was chased all night, and yet he threw two passes to his receivers in the end zone, only for both of them to do such a poor job of catching that they were hit in the facemask by the ball!! One of them Mahomes was diving horizontally to his side. It is no different to union, a 9 and 10 generally look as good as their forward pack allow them to look.
Fair enough. They certainly were spectacular plays if they had come off & lend weight to the arguments above about the spectacular ability of Mahomes. It's whether this high-risk tactic was the right thing to do given the situation. Happy to A to DA.
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@MajorRage That's easier said than done. That Tampa defense had elite playmakers all over the field, Barrett and Pierre Paul on the edges, Vaea and Suh in the middle, the fastest young middle linebacker in the league to cover Kelce and a solid secondary that was healthy (unlike in the NFC title game). Not to mention Bowles pulling the strings as D Coordinator.
