Nonu

Mick Gold Coast QLD

I was a fan of Tana Umaga (and Rodney and Piri - the Hurricanes really) right from the jump and I saw Ma'a Nonu as another of Tana's successful projects. When he departed the Hurricanes in '07 he left the ongoing work in the capable hands of Conrad Smith who finished his work only about two years ago. Ma'a is a product of these two exceptionally skillful players who moonlighted as very good teachers.
 
Even in '07 Nonu was still as Gollum describes at 07:47pm:
 
"Big & fast but terrible decision makling, bad handling, lacked accuracy, couldn't distribute."
 
Long ago I reckoned one could not select Nonu without Conrad Smith outside him to keep him on track. In the years that followed I said one would be mad to not select them as a pair and only as pair, their synergy is that outstanding. There were several years when, with Cory Jane, they were simply pretty to watch.
 
Watching the Hurricanes get pulled apart was no fun for me - I didn't know much of the underlying politics but it really was depressing seeing the combination of so many good players rent asunder. (... "rent asunder" - yeah, good one Mick! :i_am_so_happy: ) I thought Nonu was finished when he ended up as a solo performer at the Blues then in Dunedin. I was, of course, delighted when he returned to his Wellington partnership with the estimable Conrad.
 
These last couple of seasons have also been a delight watching this fabulous combination working so smoothly and effectively. Nonu's skills have widened continuously during the second half of his career, to the extent that for a while he imitated Tana's role as defender bait whilst shifting the ball deftly to others. I like the sneaky little grubbers he has fashioned - I'd like them even more if was better at it! He's a lazy big bugger for whole slabs of Super XV yet he pulls out big ones every time he is on the main stage.
 
In the video up above I see his personality is much like that of one of the past two head coaches in our Club side, both NZ raised Samoan - modest, grateful for his grand good fortune, genuine, likable and amused. I've seen him and Smith interviewed together a couple of years ago and that was entertaining too. He appears to enjoy a genuine friendship with Sonny Bill Williams as well.
 
I'm not real big on comparing players from different periods. I rather judge them on the relative impact they had in their time. Walter Little and Frank Bunce were sublime, unbeatable, as dominating as Nonu and Smith. John Schuster was quick and elusive, good enough to nudge Little aside if he'd stayed with Union. Aaron Mauger excelled in his position as effortlessly as you see in Dan Carter in his.

nostrildamus

Not so sure about Mauger, I liked him at the time but in hindsight, not so much stood out.
Nonu and SBW are more than friends, bromance industrial strength.
But the reason I wrote was to disagree with you about Nonu's recent Super involvement, the last year or two at least he seems to have been putting in the effort.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="535256" data-time="1445955325">
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Not so sure about Mauger, I liked him at the time but in hindsight, not so much stood out.
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Similar to Conrad in that his play makes those around him better. In 10 years you try explaining to someone why C Smith was a legend it'll be hard -
 
"he was not very big, sort of slow, had this awful running style that made it look really hard work, no massive upper body strength, no massive hits in defence, not really any kicking game, poor acceleration - equally slow over 10m, 40m & 100m. God he was awesome"
 
What about the tats & the hair?
 
"no tats!! not even his own name or a tribal he downloaded from 'Authentic looking tribals are us'!. And the hair, dear lord the hair"
 
and yet you'd pick in at 13 over Tana, SBW, Toeava, Laulala, Ranger, Feklitoa.
 
"of course! didn't you hear what I just said! he was a legend!!"
 
Same with Mauger. He was an auto pick for most of his time - and a legend at Liecester too, yet you'd start by saying "picture a smallish guy who can't run for shit.."

nostrildamus

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="535266" data-time="1445960942">
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Similar to Conrad in that his play makes those around him better.
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Oh yeah Mauger made Rangi at 13 look a million dollars in 2003. NEXT!

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="535267" data-time="1445964312">
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Oh yeah Mauger made Rangi at 13 look a million dollars in 2003. NEXT!
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Imagine how bad Leon would have been without Mauger there....

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="535237" data-time="1445947132">He used to shit me to tears prior to '07 with his "too cool" attitude as well. For example, he'd drop a ball, then just stop playing, without even bothering what else was going on (i.e. the opposition snapping up the ball and carving downfield). 
 
Now you couldn't find a guy more devoted to the competition across the park. 
 
Obviously him coming up against a staunch HOBM midfield defence in '06 and breaking his thumb gave him some time out to reconsider where his career was going. You're welcome.</blockquote>
 
Bones did you play against him? Sensational.

ACT Crusader

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="535238" data-time="1445947655">He used to be a big time penalty magnet at super level, less so with the ABs but now he is very disciplined</blockquote>
 
Pre-2008 he gave away a fair few penalties in black. Loved the shoulder charge.....

ACT Crusader

When Henry was rotating the squad every test during that 05-07 period, I quite liked the 12. Mauger 13. Nonu combo when it got a run. The other combo being used was Lucky/Snakey. And then there Mils and Toeava being used also. Also Lucky was used at centre a couple of times. 
The concern early on with Nonu at centre was his defence. But he improved out of sight when Tana retired and Nonu was getting regular game time at the Canes at 12.

rotated

Did Luke ever get a serious run at Centre? I only recall the diabolical 2007 Bledisloe game where he got shoehorned in after Toeava went down on the Thursday? Maybe a couple of games against Italy or Scotland but not in a serious test surely especially with Smith underplayed.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="535233" data-time="1445945790">
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That 2004 test vs the Boks in Saffaland when Marius Joubert scored a hatrick running through, around and over Tana sort of exposed Tana's defensive frailties as a centre. 
I always felt far more comfortable when Snakey came in and shored up the defence at centre. Not a slight on Tana as an overall footy player and his mana, but I liked him on the wing better.
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What bollocks. 
 
Lets set aside for a second that looking at one game is far from a good way to judge a player's defensive abilities. Tana was only at direct fault for one of those tries - the scrum one where he missed Joubert on a one on one tackle. The other two were not Tana's misses. In one he came in to tackle a loose forward and the ball was passed inside to Joubert and on the other Tana tackled the guy who made the break in cover.
 
Tana's defence was fine.
 
Is there another player whose playing reputation gets worse and worse as time goes on (by some fans)? We're almost at who's better between Scott Hamilton and Tana these days. :)

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="535554" data-time="1445996985">
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who's better between Scott Hamilton and Tana these days. :)
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Bubbles is still playing and Tana hasn't played for about 5 years, so I'm leaning towards Scotty. :)

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="535554" data-time="1445996985">
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Is there another player whose playing reputation gets worse and worse as time goes on (by some fans)? We're almost at who's better between Scott Hamilton and Tana these days. :)
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I reckon Goldie gets it a bit too.
 
Tana falls me into that category of players with Goldie, Justin Marshall, Ali Williams, Keven Mealamu, Ian Jones - maybe Piri (but I seem to rate Piri higher than most). A bloody good level, tenured ABs whose place in the team was never in jeopardy, massive contributors over a long period, but again just not locks for the best player in the world in their spots over a decent period of time. That's great company to be in I reckon and he fits better that group than McCaw, Carter, Cullen, Zinzan etc.
 
As a Blues fan I hope he turns out to be a Wayne Smith. Bloody great player and even better coach!

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535583" data-time="1445998200">
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I reckon Goldie gets it a bit too.
 
Tana falls me into that category of players with Goldie, Justin Marshall, Ali Williams, Keven Mealamu, Ian Jones - maybe Piri (but I seem to rate Piri higher than most). A bloody good level, tenured ABs whose place in the team was never in jeopardy, massive contributors over a long period, but again just not locks for the best player in the world in their spots over a decent period of time. That's great company to be in I reckon and he fits better that group than McCaw, Carter, Cullen, Zinzan etc.
 
As a Blues fan I hope he turns out to be a Wayne Smith. Bloody great player and even better coach!
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Does not compute

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="535578" data-time="1445997996">
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Bubbles is still playing and Tana hasn't played for about 5 years, so I'm leaning towards Scotty. :)
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Of course you Cantabs, yes, you're just a Far North Cantab, would say that. I'd take the arthritis ridden old man bones of Tana over Bubbles any day of the week ... and I quite liked Bubbles as a player (from Canterbury).
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535583" data-time="1445998200">
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I reckon Goldie gets it a bit too.
 
Tana falls me into that category of players with Goldie, Justin Marshall, Ali Williams, Keven Mealamu, Ian Jones - maybe Piri (but I seem to rate Piri higher than most). A bloody good level, tenured ABs whose place in the team was never in jeopardy, massive contributors over a long period, but again just not locks for the best player in the world in their spots over a decent period of time. That's great company to be in I reckon and he fits better that group than McCaw, Carter, Cullen, Zinzan etc.
 
As a Blues fan I hope he turns out to be a Wayne Smith. Bloody great player and even better coach!
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I always thought Goldie was rated pretty highly TBH. Maybe playing in the shadow of Jonah and his early retirement/return/retirement plays a part in how he's rated by some?
 
I rate Piri highly but don't think he should be in that group, although if you want the perfect reserve halfback then he was probably in that group.
 
Ian Jones suffers because of his ability to mangle both the English and Maori languages, and the sneaking suspicion that Robin Brooke was better when not injured.

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="535590" data-time="1445998773">
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Of course you Cantabs, yes, you're just a Far North Cantab, would say that. I'd take the arthritis ridden old man bones of Tana over Bubbles any day of the week ... and I quite liked Bubbles as a player (from Canterbury).
 
 
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Nah, Ta$man are the South Central Vikings

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="535554" data-time="1445996985">
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Is there another player whose playing reputation gets worse and worse as time goes on (by some fans)? We're almost at who's better between Scott Hamilton and Tana these days. :)
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Reminds me of several peoples attitudes to the most successful coach in Super rugby history. Present company included.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="535597" data-time="1445999013">
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Reminds me of several peoples attitudes to the most successful coach in Super rugby history. Present company included.
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That's a bit left field. And, at any rate I don't think anyone doesn't rate Deans' time in charge of the Crusaders ....
 
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="535593" data-time="1445998838">
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Nah, Ta$man are the South Central Vikings
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Settle down Joh Bjelke.

mariner4life

motherf...

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="535586" data-time="1445998360">
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Does not compute
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Yeah fair call. If you take right wing/left wing as substantively different positions. I don't really - like with locks but it's fair enough too. Of that group listed Goldie would be the closest to the Cully, Lomu range for sure. Maybe it comes up to the second criteria I mentioned earlier in the thread about being the standout player in your area (tight five, loosies, halves, backline) for a good chunk of time as an AB and like Nepia said perhaps Lomu and Cully were so clearly more dominant - plus 99 semi and the early retirement.
 
I freaking loved Goldie, growing up he was one of my favourites - especially with the double international thing - but I watched back about 10 tests from the 1995-1997 era and he just wasn't as good as what I remembered. Still brilliant at times and far more solid in defence and support play than the other two. 1997 was a special team.

MN5

I think in any other era Wilson woulda easily been the standout back three player, he just had the misfortune of playing alongside Cully and Jonah much like Kronfeld suffers in comparison to the two guys that most regularly played 7 before and after him.

The Silver Fern

Nonu