Black Caps v Pakistan
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Nichols teeing off
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@Hooroo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
250 partnership up, interestingly only 221 of those are off the bat. That is a lot of extras.
A few byes down leg side for four where the ball has kept swinging away from the keeper
b 10, lb 7, nb 10, w 7
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@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Hooroo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
250 partnership up, interestingly only 221 of those are off the bat. That is a lot of extras.
A few byes down leg side for four where the ball has kept swinging away from the keeper
b 10, lb 7, nb 10, w 7
That's terrible
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@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Hooroo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
250 partnership up, interestingly only 221 of those are off the bat. That is a lot of extras.
A few byes down leg side for four where the ball has kept swinging away from the keeper
b 10, lb 7, nb 10, w 7
+2
Keeper having a mare
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@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Godder said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Godder said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Godder said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@rotated said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Godder said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I think we can safely say now that Kane is our best test batsman, and also that Taylor is second (Taylor has surpassed everyone else IMO - we're only not lauding him as our best ever because of Kane), but it's still very close between Kane and Taylor across all international formats (Taylor has the better ODI record, most total runs and longevity).
I'm a huge Taylor fan but he can put up all the runs he wants from now until the end of his career and he probably won't be able to get past Crowe.
Crowe has legitimate players from the late 80s/early 90s era who rate him as one of the best, if not the best, batsman they bowled against. Taylor even at his peak still had obvious idiosyncrasies (particularly early in an innings) which hold him back from being in those discussions. Very similar to the second half of Fleming's career.
Taylor is one of the best "very good" batsmen around in that he's not an all time world great but is the kind of guy that would make any current international squad one way or another. ( ie he's no Steve Smith but would still walk into an Aussie squad ).
Crowe played in a tougher era than Taylor overall so for that reason would be rated higher, Richie Richardson and Gordon Greenidge both got knighted with records inferior to Crowe on paper and they never had to face their own bowlers !
I still reckon Taylor has done exceptionally well for a guy with a few strange shots and quirks. cricinfo tells me he has just one fifty in his last 13 innings though, should this be cause for a bit of alarm ?
Crowe's record is a little blemished by his start (as usual for Kiwi greats) and end (in that he struggled with his knees at the end), but he has NZ's highest first class average and was widely acknowledged in his heyday as one of the top batsmen in the world, so he will always be in conversations about great Kiwi batsmen (as is right and proper), and his on drive was poetry in motion, so that has to count for something.
Taylor has the most test, ODI (and international) runs of any NZ batsman, a higher average in both formats than Crowe, more centuries and 50s, and also more times past 50 per innings (0.29 in tests and 0.33 in ODIs, Crowe was 0.26 and 0.27 respectively). I know there's the thought that bowling was probably tougher to face back then, particularly the West Indies and Pakistan (the contrast has been painfully obvious this season...), but the South African, Aussie, English and Sri Lankan attacks have been much stronger in Taylor's era than they were in Crowe's era. Taylor and Crowe both had limited exposure to Zimbabwe, and Sri Lanka was the 80s version of Bangladesh, so they haven't had huge amounts of difference in terms of playing the bunnies.
That on drive though... I still put Taylor ahead of Crowe, but it's not by much.
I remember when Crowe passed away there was a bit of debate on here as to his standing in the echelon of greats. Kiwi great ? fuck yes, no denying it and an automatic pick in any all time XI.
It's when you look at his standing compared to the rest of the world that things get a bit murkier. Of his era I'd regard the likes of Gavaskar, Greg Chappell, Border, Richards and Miandad as genuine hall of famers. I'd put Crowe in a group slightly lower with other fine players like Greenidge, Haynes, Gooch, Gower, Richardson and a few others. Bloody good, but possibly not genuine greats ( maybe Gooch deserves to be in the first list ? he faced the greatest fast bowlers in history as an opener in that era more than anyone )
For what it's worth I'd have Taylor in the equivalent group for his era, but I think Crowe was better than Rossco and neither are as good as KW.
The argument on here was ( I think ) that Crowe was as great as Paddles which is simply not true.
I'd have Gooch as an all time hall of famer as an opener, it probably has to be judged differently to other batting positions. Can add Tendulkar and Lara to that list as well (their careers overlapped with Crowe by 5 or so years). Where do people see Steve Waugh in this - his career overlapped with Crowe's by quite a bit, but Waugh was more of an all-rounder early in his career, not the specialist batsman he later became.
Steve Waugh became Border mark II in the middle order. Genuine great no doubt. For point of reference his twin is in the "very good" category.
Tendulkar and Lara ? I don't need to talk them up but I don't really consider them part of Crowes era by that much ( although there was obviously some overlap ).
Good call on Gooch, he also had a terrible start to his test career but rectified that and then some. I think you're right, so much tougher as an opener ( which makes Gavaskars record even more impressive than it is )
Lara and Tendulkar overlapped Crowe's career by as much as Gavaskar and more than G Chappell, and S Waugh (debuted in 1985) overlapped by more than either but obviously wasn't Border MkII until Border retired in 1994 (just before Crowe in 1995). Of players who had 10 years concurrent with Crowe and were all time greats, it's probably Border, Waugh, Richards, Miandad and Gooch. If dropping to 5 years, Gavaskar, Tendulkar and Lara come into the conversation as well.
Gooch is a better player than his average suggests although 42 is still pretty bloody good.
Would you put Greenidge and Haynes in this bracket too ?
Their records were as good or better than Gooch (Greenidge being the best of the 3), so can't really argue against it.
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@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Hooroo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
250 partnership up, interestingly only 221 of those are off the bat. That is a lot of extras.
A few byes down leg side for four where the ball has kept swinging away from the keeper
b 10, lb 7, nb 10, w 7
+2
Keeper having a mare
Not for 8 of the ten. He had no chance
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@Hooroo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Hooroo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
250 partnership up, interestingly only 221 of those are off the bat. That is a lot of extras.
A few byes down leg side for four where the ball has kept swinging away from the keeper
b 10, lb 7, nb 10, w 7
+2
Keeper having a mare
Not for 8 of the ten. He had no chance
Add in the dropped catch and he'd not be happy.
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@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
+4 byes
Harsh on Rizwan that one.
Further comment on that one. That was entirely down to the bowler and should have been wides and counted against him.
Used to shit me as a keeper when a bad ball resulted in byes against me.
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@delicatessen said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@delicatessen said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
Nicholls dropped again.
He's leading a charmed life this summer.
While it's great for the team, it's incredibly frustrating with Conway ready for a crack. Why should Nichols be judged by the poor performance of the opposition?
If we have excellent players who can't get a look in then that's good for NZ cricket.
Besides which as I posted earlier Rossco is having a slightly lean patch of late, Conway might get a shot there soon if he decides to retire ? ( he's 37 in March )
It's not through Nichols' ability that he can't get a look in. It's through Pakistans ineptitude.
Rossco is not looking like he's trying to play test cricket at the minute. Almost like he's been asked to play a more attacking role? Either way he's not shelving his dangerous shots at all, which worked for that quick 70 the other day but looks a bit out of place after two quick wickets.
Either way, they shouldn't drop Rossco before Nichols if Nichols has given more chances early in his innings than Taylor has. No idea if that's the case tbf.
How do you drop a guy with two centuries in four tests this year though ?
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@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I reckon the plan early today has to be get Nicholls to his ton, get a lead and then accelerate a bit. Possibly getting way ahead of ourselves but a niggly declaration leaving Pakistan half an hour to bat would work wonders.
Any other thoughts ?
Just keep piling on the runs!
What do we think is an acceptable total/lead from here, considering we're pretty much level pegging with 7 wickets in hand?
450 minimum, lead of 150?
More like 600, lead of 300. More if we can get it. Only want to bat once.
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@delicatessen said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@delicatessen said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
Nicholls dropped again.
He's leading a charmed life this summer.
While it's great for the team, it's incredibly frustrating with Conway ready for a crack. Why should Nichols be judged by the poor performance of the opposition?
If we have excellent players who can't get a look in then that's good for NZ cricket.
Besides which as I posted earlier Rossco is having a slightly lean patch of late, Conway might get a shot there soon if he decides to retire ? ( he's 37 in March )
It's not through Nichols' ability that he can't get a look in. It's through Pakistans ineptitude.
Nonsense, Nicholls ability is the biggest factor in him scoring runs at the moment, particularly mentally where he's making the opposition pay when he gets a chance. So often batsmen throw it away when they are struggling to find form but Nicholls has shown multiple times that he has what it takes to fight for his wicket when things get tough.
I get that he's had his fair share of luck this season but that's not been the case his entire career. There are times when you feel in good nick but every half chance is being taken, other times you get a few chances when you're trying to find form and it's up to you to make the most of it. But you don't fluke your way to a 44 average with 7 tons after 37 matches at this level. All batsmen get chances from time to time, Kane has had a few this year as well.
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@No-Quarter said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@delicatessen said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@delicatessen said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
Nicholls dropped again.
He's leading a charmed life this summer.
While it's great for the team, it's incredibly frustrating with Conway ready for a crack. Why should Nichols be judged by the poor performance of the opposition?
If we have excellent players who can't get a look in then that's good for NZ cricket.
Besides which as I posted earlier Rossco is having a slightly lean patch of late, Conway might get a shot there soon if he decides to retire ? ( he's 37 in March )
It's not through Nichols' ability that he can't get a look in. It's through Pakistans ineptitude.
Nonsense, Nicholls ability is the biggest factor in him scoring runs at the moment, particularly mentally where he's making the opposition pay when he gets a chance. So often batsmen throw it away when they are struggling to find form but Nicholls has shown multiple times that he has what it takes to fight for his wicket when things get tough.
I get that he's had his fair share of luck this season but that's not been the case his entire career. There are times when you feel in good nick but every half chance is being taken, other times you get a few chances when you're trying to find form and it's up to you to make the most of it. But you don't fluke your way to a 44 average with 7 tons after 37 matches at this level. All batsmen get chances from time to time, Kane has had a few this year as well.
Well said. If Nicholls was as shit as @delicatessen is implying he'd be out by now. You still have to have the goods to get the runs and his record speaks for itself ( and I definitely doubted his ability early in his career so he proved me wrong ).
