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If it's close between Cairns and the others then Cairns can fuck right off for being a prima donna and bringing the game into disrepute.
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@No-Quarter said in Modern batting averages:
If it's close between Cairns and the others then Cairns can fuck right off for being a prima donna and bringing the game into disrepute.
Look, I'll pile into Cairns as much as the next fella, but the high ground is a bit shaky:
Can we consider Warne or Ponting in 'best of'? PED conviction, passing on pitch information, etc.
What bout Warner + Steve Smith - ball tampering
So we exclude all of them from consideration perhaps. Now, how about the squeaky clean NZ bowling attack going at the ball in Pakistan with a bottle cap? Martin Crowe - gone, along with Pringle.
I agree that Cairns went over the line, but does that invalidate what he achieved up to that point?
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@No-Quarter said in Modern batting averages:
If it's close between Cairns and the others then Cairns can fuck right off for being a prima donna and bringing the game into disrepute.
He did this in a meaningless IPL game. There's nothing to indicate he ever did anything wrong in his Black Caps career.
@nzzp said in Modern batting averages:
@No-Quarter said in Modern batting averages:
If it's close between Cairns and the others then Cairns can fuck right off for being a prima donna and bringing the game into disrepute.
Look, I'll pile into Cairns as much as the next fella, but the high ground is a bit shaky:
Can we consider Warne or Ponting in 'best of'? PED conviction, passing on pitch information, etc.
What bout Warner + Steve Smith - ball tampering
So we exclude all of them from consideration perhaps. Now, how about the squeaky clean NZ bowling attack going at the ball in Pakistan with a bottle cap? Martin Crowe - gone, along with Pringle.
I agree that Cairns went over the line, but does that invalidate what he achieved up to that point?
Indeed, throw in Greg Chappell ( who is probably competing with Ponting and Smith for one spot in the team ) for the underarm incident too.
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I have fixing the outcome for the bookies, whether that's individual balls or the outcome of matches, at a much higher level of bringing the game into disrepute than bending rules to give your team a competitive advantage, which is common across athletes of all sports.
A meaningless IPL game for sure, but it gives the impression that it could have happened in any match, and international matches had way higher stakes so it's hard to believe it isn't happening at that level where the $$ is much higher.
Cairns getting involved in that shit and accepting money to do so means I have basically scrubbed him from the history books when it comes to all time 11s.
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@No-Quarter said in Modern batting averages:
I have fixing the outcome for the bookies, whether that's individual balls or the outcome of matches, at a much higher level of bringing the game into disrepute than bending rules to give your team a competitive advantage, which is common across athletes of all sports.
A meaningless IPL game for sure, but it gives the impression that it could have happened in any match, and international matches had way higher stakes so it's hard to believe it isn't happening at that level where the $$ is much higher.
Cairns getting involved in that shit and accepting money to do so means I have basically scrubbed him from the history books when it comes to all time 11s.
Well firstly this means you're judging the man, not the career. If that was the case I'm sure loads of all time sports teams would look pretty different given the massive number of dickheads who have been sporting legends ( as @nzzp mentions the Aussie team would lose a lot of players ) Secondly he wasn't actually convicted of match fixing ? ( although I find it extremely doubtful that he's totally squeaky clean )
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@No-Quarter It's indicative of a "I choose when and what rules apply to me" attitude that popped up consistently across his career.
Our all time Test XI already ahs a bowling allrounder and a wicketkeeping allrounder so we don't need another. We pick another specialist batsman or another specialist bowler depending on the needs of the team on the day. So the question should be is Cairns one of our top 6 batsmen of all time? No. OK is he one of our top 4 seamers of all time? Also No (IMO).
So really his disciplinary issues are a red herring as he doesn't qualify on talent.
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@dogmeat said in Modern batting averages:
@No-Quarter It's indicative of a "I choose when and what rules apply to me" attitude that popped up consistently across his career.
Our all time Test XI already ahs a bowling allrounder and a wicketkeeping allrounder so we don't need another. We pick another specialist batsman or another specialist bowler depending on the needs of the team on the day. So the question should be is Cairns one of our top 6 batsmen of all time? No. OK is he one of our top 4 seamers of all time? Also No (IMO).
So really his disciplinary issues are a red herring as he doesn't qualify on talent.
I do hear this argument. That's why loads of All Rounders have an aura that exceeds their numbers in a lot of cases. I just like the idea of a guy that can and will contribute with Bat and/or ball when needed but of the All Round legends only Sobers and Kallis could be considered batting greats and only Paddles, Imran, Keith Miller, early Botham and Pollock bowling greats.
Others probably do "enough" in each discipline. Cairns is in this echelon but his batting far exceeds that of Boult, Wags and Southee when their bowling isn't a huge deal better than his which will always be my argument for his place over them even though Boult is still in my current team alongside him, Paddles and Bond.
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For mine, batting doesn't matter that much for an all time XI other than the specialist batters. I'd pick the bowlers and keeper on their skills in those areas, not their batting prowess. Batting would be a tie break if two options were equal though. I'd pick Smith over Watling and on current stats, one of the current crop over C Cairns.
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I created the best ever XI polls for test and ODI team's 4 or 5 years ago... can't seem to find the threads - anyone?
Would certainly be a worthwhile exercise doing again, some of the current team would certainly have enhanced their cases for inclusion.
I'll try and get it organised over the next few days, unless someone else has time on their hands and wants to do it?
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@Gunner said in Modern batting averages:
I created the best ever XI polls for test and ODI team's 4 or 5 years ago... can't seem to find the threads - anyone?
Would certainly be a worthwhile exercise doing again, some of the current team would certainly have enhanced their cases for inclusion.
I'll try and get it organised over the next few days, unless someone else has time on their hands and wants to do it?
Definitely. Watling, Wagner and Latham are all worth a shout compared to a few years back.
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@Gunner said in Modern batting averages:
I created the best ever XI polls for test and ODI team's 4 or 5 years ago... can't seem to find the threads - anyone?
If it's older than 2016 it'll be gone. We had to purge most threads when changing forum software
@Gunner said in Modern batting averages:
Would certainly be a worthwhile exercise doing again, some of the current team would certainly have enhanced their cases for inclusion.
I'll try and get it organised over the next few days, unless someone else has time on their hands and wants to do it?
Yeah good idea. I've made a sub forum for this: https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/category/55/best-cricket-xi
You're a mod in that sub forum. So make up whatever rules you want
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Saw this on FB, may as well post it here.....
50 greatest Cricketers of all time as per David Gower....
- Sir Don Bradman
- Sir Garfield Sobers
- Sachin Tendulkar
- Shane Warne
- Sir Viv Richards
- Brian Lara
- Sir Jack Hobbs
- Wally Hammond
- Malcolm Marshall
- W.G. Grace
- Imran Khan
- Sir Ian Botham
- Sydney Barnes
- Jacques Kallis
- Barry Richards
- Dennis Lillee
- Sir Len Hutton
- Wilfred Rhodes
- Richie Benaud
- Denis Compton
- Keith Miller
- Bill O' Reilly
- Sir Andy Roberts
- Sir Richard Hadlee
- Graeme Pollock
- Sunil Gavaskar
- Wasim Akram
- Allan Border
- Glenn McGrath
- Muttiah Muralitharan
- George Headley
- Sir Curtly Ambrose
- Javed Miandad
- Ricky Ponting
- Sir Frank Worrell
- Herbert Sutcliffe
- Greg Chappell
- Fred Trueman
- AB De Villiers
- Dale Steyn
- Kumar Sangakkara
- Adam Gilchrist
- Ray Lindwall
- Harold Larwood
- Joel Garner
- Virender Sehwag
- Kevin Pietersen
- Kapil Dev
- Jeff Thomson
- Alan Knott
Off the top of my head I’d say Andy Roberts is too high....also no Gooch, S Waugh, S Pollock or Younis. One NZer is pretty standard, KW will join this list when he retires.
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@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
Can’t disagree with the top 5. Even the order works for me.
He’s got just two out and out bowlers in his top ten. Only one other turned the arm over with any regularity. Not sure how fair that is but then again it’s just ones blokes opinion.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 Paddles way too low if Botham and Khan are used as comparison.
Botham yes, but Imran was the best of the lot all round ( pun intended )
The three were (and are) arguably on a par. To have Paddles 10 spots below those two makes no sense
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@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 said in Black Caps tour to England:
@crucial said in Black Caps tour to England:
@mn5 Paddles way too low if Botham and Khan are used as comparison.
Botham yes, but Imran was the best of the lot all round ( pun intended )
The three were (and are) arguably on a par. To have Paddles 10 spots below those two makes no sense
Hadlee the best bowler but not by much.....and easily the worst batsman. Beefy hard to judge cos his stats suffered at the end......Imran just class all round......and Kapil last ( but can be argued its tough as a pace bowler in India ).
Even all these years later its hard to judge but if I had to pick an ALL ROUNDER I’d have to go Imran.
