'Super Rugby' 2021
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@Kirwan said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
It's all becoming a little mundane. Just organise the 5+5 comp - no conferences and a four team finals series - and let performances on the field do the talking. When we end up with four Kiwi sides in the finals, the point will be proven. The Pacifika idea is cute, but highly likely to be unsustainable, so shelve it.
This. No silly confirmed semi final spots for the much weaker Aussie conference, and for the PI team give a concrete date, eg 2022, to add that team, and maybe one from Japan to keep the teams even.
For weaker teams, like the Chiefs
, it will give them somebody to beat. (Getting in early)This is essential. One of the main criticisms of Super Rugby over the last few years - and something that was finally going to change, next year - was the automatic qualification for the finals of the highest ranked team in the Aussie conference and the highest ranked team of the SA conference, despite the teams in those conferences having an easier schedule by not having to play all NZ teams and still sometimes ending up on a lower competition points total than several other teams. The game schedule shouldn't favour teams based on the country they're based in.
Btw, I'll also miss the games against teams like the Sharks, Stormers and Jaguares (and the pre-2019 Lions). I think we lose something by not playing SA teams. IMO, we're not going to gain anything by re-admitting the Force. I'm only for adding a PI team if it's based in the PIs and provides a pathway for players overthere. Obviously, no problem with propping up their squad with players now based in Europe (or not picked in NZ or Aus), but I assume the Europe based players will only say goodbye to their European wages if a sponsor of the PI team can pay good salaries or if they're at the end of their overseas' carreers.
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@Stargazer playing the SA teams so regularly, and over there, was of real benefit to NZ rugby as a whole. I'll sort of miss them too.
But then, in those early days, i was a night owl working in hospo, or out drinking piss until all hours, so i would watch a lot of games in the republic. These days? I'll not even watch a recording. Just the sports news highlights.
I'm cool with 5+5, just get it done
(i also highly doubt NZ will end up with 4 semi finalists).
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this ^ for me the practical side of watching outweighs seeing slightly higher quality
lets not forget, NZ teams won the first 6 championships, so NZ did ok at building its own quality, its not like it took years for us to get up to speed
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@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
(i also highly doubt NZ will end up with 4 semi finalists).
Probs three, but definitely two home semis.
Also this seems like a lot of angst for a one year competition.
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@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
(i also highly doubt NZ will end up with 4 semi finalists).
Probs three, but definitely two home semis.
Also this seems like a lot of angst for a one year competition.
it's creating news in the Aus media about rugby for a change. And it gives us something to talk about.
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@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
(i also highly doubt NZ will end up with 4 semi finalists).
Probs three, but definitely two home semis.
Also this seems like a lot of angst for a one year competition.
do we know that? i mean, if its successful...do we honestly think they'll go back to the the old one?
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@Kiwiwomble I'd say money is everything. At the moment there's no way a TT comp would draw in as much cash.
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@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
(i also highly doubt NZ will end up with 4 semi finalists).
Probs three, but definitely two home semis.
Also this seems like a lot of angst for a one year competition.
I am not so sure this is a one yer comp. This is designed for the future going forward from Aritipu, not just a Covid stop gap.
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@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble I'd say money is everything. At the moment there's no way a TT comp would draw in as much cash.
yeah, this is a consideration, though probably not as big a one as SA fans would like to have us believe
The conference system really should have worked. It gave everyone what they wanted. Derbies. Home content. A reason to follow the team deep in to the season.
What fucked it was the fact that the Aussie and South African teams fell off a cliff, and so despite playing each other multiple times, the NZ teams were still at the top of the table. And then the "inequities" set in, which built resentment.
While in Aus, the resentment was that they fucking hate losing, and turned off as their teams were so uncompetitive. I assume in SA they hated it because they still thought it was rigged. Also too many games at shit times.
Japan was a good idea done poorly. Argentina was a nice gesture that added too many fucking miles.
You can't make a competition that covers so many miles. It just does not work. This requires some seriously creative thinking. Or market forces finally take over, and we become Brazil in soccer (if we're lucky).
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@shark I think we would at least have the Brumbies in the final four, who were coming second before lockdown.
But, regardless, i really don't see the issue for you. If you have four finalists isn't that great? you get two home semis and derbies to boot.
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@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
What fucked it was the fact that the Aussie and South African teams fell off a cliff, and so despite playing each other multiple times, the NZ teams were still at the top of the table. And then the "inequities" set in, which built resentment.
I think this is only one of many reasons why it declined here in Australia. Not all teams were bad - the Tahs, for example, have had their best decade ever and from 2013-2018 were genuinely good to watch.
Where the conference system was supposed to simplify, it did not achieve that aim. SA had two conferences while Aus and NZ had one each. We then threw Japan in our conference for good measure.
But an underrated aspect of the decline is the lack of games in regular timeslots. Too often you'd look at the draw for the weekend and there wouldn't be a game in Australia on Saturday night. The Rebels would be in SA, the Tahs on a bye, and there was a derby on Friday night. Or you'd watch the Tahs at home and they'd spruik the next home game, which was five weeks away.
One of the best features of SuperAU/NZ at the moment is that I don't need to look at the TV guide any more. I know here there will be a game on Friday night, and one on Saturday night, and both will be pretty watchable. I'll get to watch every Tahs game live. It's been bloody great.
But simply saying the Australian/SA teams were shit and therefore the comp died is not true IMO. It's just one of a whole heap of reasons why Super died.
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@barbarian it was definitely a big factor though. Post 2015 SA and Aus teams were garbage coated garbage stuffed with garbage.
Half (or more) of our talent was in Europe. The NZ teams were never as affected because the ABs still pull in big cash and most of their better players were protected from poaching. Most NZ players only left when it became apparent they weren't going to become tenured All Blacks.
Our best players left as teens to NRL or AFL - or early in their career once they'd scored a few caps.
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@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But simply saying the Australian/SA teams were shit and therefore the comp died is not true IMO. It's just one of a whole heap of reasons why Super died.
no fucking shit Barb, do you want me to list every fucking reason?
But denying the fact the Aussie teams were shit (except for one at a time) was a reason a heap turned off is blinkered. All my mates up here who were Reds fans turned it off because they were sick of sucking.
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@mariner4life i agree. Problem is, cutting a team won't actually fix this (as it didn't with the Force). The only way Aus will ever be able to compete on the same level as NZ is with a huge injection of cash that allows us to recoup our best players and secure our future talent.
Any talk of cutting to greatness is nonsense.
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@Kiwiwomble I think some might - but it wouldnt be sufficient to boost the quality of the eastcoast team enough to boos the quality across the board to be equal to NZ. Not even close.
We saw what happened with the Force and Rebels. Force got cut and all of their better players and coach went to the Rebels to no particularly great effect.
Trying that again on the off chance it works this time seems like lunacy.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life i agree. Problem is, cutting a team won't actually fix this (as it didn't with the Force). The only way Aus will ever be able to compete on the same level as NZ is with a huge injection of cash that allows us to recoup our best players and secure our future talent.
Any talk of cutting to greatness is nonsense.
i get your point, i really do.
But the same arguments were made about expansion. More spots meant greater development, and better player retention. That never materialised. And then look a some of the off-casts that made up the Force rosters over the years. From numerous countries.
I'm not too sure about your point about AB players being better paid either. Pretty sure a Wallaby contract is worth fuck loads. I have no idea why those good young players kept leaving. Especially those locks.
There were some spectacularly bad contracts thrown around by RA though.
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@mariner4life I think if you secure one of 10 odd RA contracts you are well paid but then it drops off dramatically.
Coleman is currently earning 900k in England. 900k for a player who shouldnt have really been wearing a test jersey the last two years.
You can't compete with that. We just do what we can to keep a semi competitive Wallabies limping along.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life I think if you secure one of 10 odd RA contracts you are well paid but then it drops off dramatically.
Coleman is currently earning 900k in England. 900k for a player who shouldnt have really been wearing a test jersey the last two years.
You can't compete with that. We just do what we can to keep a semi competitive Wallabies limping along.
mate i think you are grossly over-evaluating what an AB can make in NZ. Certainly what a non-AB can make. I honestly don't know why so many of them stay given the money on offer. Japan looks like a great place to play piss easy rugby for truck loads of money.
The economic realities should have crushed us years ago, and it's a credit to the NZRU that they haven't.
