'Super Rugby' 2021
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Wayne Smith in the Aus today. Discussions appear to be going well then:
‘Expressions of insolence’ from NZ as rugby talks go off the rails
The meeting was supposed to be about Australian “expressions of interest” in the Kiwis’ planned trans- Ta$man competition, but as Rugby Australia CEO Rob Clarke listened to his New Zealand Rugby counterpart Mark Robinson on Monday, all he heard were “expressions of insolence”.
Granted, that remarkable opinion only comes second-hand, from the chairman of Rugby Australia Hamish McLennan. “Clarkie said it was more ‘expressions of insolence’,” McLennan told The Australian when questioned on the outcome of the video hook-up.
All things considered, then, not one of the more enlightened days in the history of the two countries that have played each other more often in rugby Tests than any two nations on the planet.
There had been some hope, following the release on Friday of the NZR communique, that the Kiwis might have moderated their customary “master-servant” mode of dealing with Australia. That, at least, was how McLennan optimistically interpreted the fact that Kiwis had dropped their “take it or leave it” eight-team competition — in which there was only room for two Australian teams — and substituted an “eight to 10-team” competition.
But the optimism lasted only until Clarke’s Zoom meeting with Robinson and the NZR’s chief rugby officer Nigel Cass, where the New Zealanders are understood to have reverted to type, utterly rejecting Australia’s proposal of a 10-team competition – with five teams from NZ, five from Australia.
Both nations, incidentally, are supportive of a Pasifika side also competing, but Australia believes it will take at least 12 months to set up the team and has recommended pushing their entry out to 2022 and expanding the contest to 11 franchises. It will probably take Australia and NZ that long to agree on whether to base them in Auckland or western Sydney.
Where this “insolence” leaves negotiations no one is quite sure. A Kiwi request to send over the contract documents for Australia to peruse was rejected by Clarke, who flatly insisted they would not wash. What was most remarkable about that rejection was that he made that ruling before going into a RA board meeting, which suggests all directors fully support Australia standing up for itself.
Australia did not need to be reminded yesterday by NZR’s unofficial media arm, the New Zealand Herald, that Australian teams are “embarrassingly out of their depth against Kiwi teams right now”. This particularly holds true for the Brumbies, who beat the Chiefs 26-14 in Hamilton on February 22, and the Rebels, who beat the Highlanders 28-22 in Dunedin one week later, and the Reds, who outscored the Crusaders four tries to three but lost 24-20 in Christchurch a further week later when they couldn’t land a kick. Oh, and the Brumbies also were terribly out of their depth when thrashed 23-22 by the Highlanders after the bell in Canberra on February 15.
No doubt as the Herald intended to mention, but somehow forgot, these were all results recorded “right now”. Or as “right now” as a global pandemic would permit.
Australia’s preference is to engage in a trans- Ta$man competition with New Zealand. Yet all indications are it has no intention of allowing the NZR to determine which Australian teams will be play and which are surplus to Kiwi requirements.
It is unthinkable that, if the situation was reversed, Australia would be advocating the demise of, say, the Chiefs, who now find themselves at the bottom of the Super Rugby Aotearoa table. That is not something good neighbours demand of each other.
One lesson Australia learned from 2017, when it culled the Western Force from Super Rugby at the behest of SANZAAR, was never again to lose control of its autonomy. Besides, it is now building towards a 2027 World Cup and realises that the more professional teams it boasts, the more the commercial value.
If need be, RA will embark on a super-sized version of this year’s Super Rugby AU competition next year. McLennan has indicated he is prepared to welcome foreign players from around the world – three per franchise – along with a possible team from South Africa, which also was on the receiving end of some offhand treatment by NZ last week. Effectively, its presence in Super Rugby was terminated in a NZR press release.
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Wayne Smith is right. The Aussies can support 3 decent teams. It's bullshit to pretend they don't
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@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Wayne Smith in the Aus today. Discussions appear to be going well then:
Is this the same level of probity the Australian brought to RA's governance and broadcast contract negotiations?
‘Expressions of insolence’ from NZ as rugby talks go off the rails
The meeting was supposed to be about Australian “expressions of interest” in the Kiwis’ planned trans- Ta$man competition, but as Rugby Australia CEO Rob Clarke listened to his New Zealand Rugby counterpart Mark Robinson on Monday, all he heard were “expressions of insolence”.
Granted, that remarkable opinion only comes second-hand, from the chairman of Rugby Australia Hamish McLennan. “Clarkie said it was more ‘expressions of insolence’,” McLennan told The Australian when questioned on the outcome of the video hook-up.
All things considered, then, not one of the more enlightened days in the history of the two countries that have played each other more often in rugby Tests than any two nations on the planet.
There had been some hope, following the release on Friday of the NZR communique, that the Kiwis might have moderated their customary “master-servant” mode of dealing with Australia. That, at least, was how McLennan optimistically interpreted the fact that Kiwis had dropped their “take it or leave it” eight-team competition — in which there was only room for two Australian teams — and substituted an “eight to 10-team” competition.
The same '“take it or leave it” eight-team competition' straw man the Australian media invented? The one reported before the Aratipu review had been provided?
But the optimism lasted only until Clarke’s Zoom meeting with Robinson and the NZR’s chief rugby officer Nigel Cass, where the New Zealanders are understood to have reverted to type, utterly rejecting Australia’s proposal of a 10-team competition – with five teams from NZ, five from Australia.
RA would do well to address the reporting in Australian media, or get consigned to the scrap heap.
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@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
But the optimism lasted only until Clarke’s Zoom meeting with Robinson and the NZR’s chief rugby officer Nigel Cass, where the New Zealanders are understood to have reverted to type, utterly rejecting Australia’s proposal of a 10-team competition – with five teams from NZ, five from Australia.
Just noting that Australia utterly rejected the 8 team concept.
The real challenge is what do either side bring to the table. Because it better be good rugby, or good funding (eyeballs), or both. I strongly support a trans-tasman comp, but that doesn't necessarily mean a 5 team Aussie representation.
I tend to agree with RA about the Pacific side though - assuming it gets off the ground, when could it sensibly start playing? A better option would be genuine talent development in the islands... but I can't see that happening in the short term.
We really need Japan in the medium term. Should be talking to them about the timing and feasibility of it
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@nzzp said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I tend to agree with RA about the Pacific side though - assuming it gets off the ground, when could it sensibly start playing? A better option would be genuine talent development in the islands... but I can't see that happening in the short term.
I can't see why NZR is at all interested in this albatross. It's a stupid idea, any board member supporting it should be removed. RA needs to kill it and ensure that it doesn't come at the expense of the only consistently good team; the Brumbies.
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@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Australia did not need to be reminded yesterday by NZR’s unofficial media arm, the New Zealand Herald
That's hilarious!
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@KiwiMurph said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I don't really see why NZ is outright rejecting 5 Aus teams (if they actually are) but are open to 4 Aus teams + Pacific.
Just have a 10 team trans Ta$man comp for 2021 and get on with it whilst figuring out the pacific side for 2022.
i can get on board with that, better than latter things fall apart, id like to see some guidlines like perth games have to be early avo so it still watchable on east coast and NZ
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@Stargazer said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Australia did not need to be reminded yesterday by NZR’s unofficial media arm, the New Zealand Herald
That's hilarious!
If they changed it to NZR's unofficial PR person, New Zealand Herald's Gregor Paul I reckon they would be on the money.
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@KiwiMurph said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I don't really see why NZ is outright rejecting 5 Aus teams (if they actually are) but are open to 4 Aus teams + Pacific.
Just have a 10 team trans Ta$man comp for 2021 and get on with it whilst figuring out the pacific side for 2022.
because this at least allows for an answer for the inevitable accusations of once again ignoring Pacific rugby
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@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@KiwiMurph said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I don't really see why NZ is outright rejecting 5 Aus teams (if they actually are) but are open to 4 Aus teams + Pacific.
Just have a 10 team trans Ta$man comp for 2021 and get on with it whilst figuring out the pacific side for 2022.
because this at least allows for an answer for the inevitable accusations of once again ignoring Pacific rugby
hard to know whats worse, rush it though and be accused of just paying lip service or take time and do it right but be accused of delaying again
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What I find stupid is that they're talking about 5 Aussie teams as if the Force hadn't been dropped from SR, a few years ago.
Initially, the Sunwolves were supposed to be competing in Super AU; IIRC, it was only when that became impossible that the Force entered the frame.
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@Stargazer said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
What I find stupid is that they're talking about 5 Aussie teams as if the Force hadn't been dropped from SR, a few years ago.
Initially, the Sunwolves were supposed to be competing in Super AU; IIRC, it was only when that became impossible that the Force entered the frame.
so arrogant!! the Force are essential!!
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@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@KiwiMurph said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I don't really see why NZ is outright rejecting 5 Aus teams (if they actually are) but are open to 4 Aus teams + Pacific.
Just have a 10 team trans Ta$man comp for 2021 and get on with it whilst figuring out the pacific side for 2022.
because this at least allows for an answer for the inevitable accusations of once again ignoring Pacific rugby
hard to know whats worse, rush it though and be accused of just paying lip service or take time and do it right but be accused of delaying again
would there really be much pushback on a delay if they announced a pacific side was entering in 2022? I highly doubt it.
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@KiwiMurph i wouldn't but you know someone would, especially after its been so firmly suggested for next year
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@nzzp the reality is NZ need teams to play and in a Covid fucked world Australia is the most likely (and probably the only realistic) source of those teams. This gives Australia some leverage, though Australia need NZ just as much.
The 'competitiveness' argument is bullshit as evidenced by NZRU's posturing for a Japanese/Pasifika team. Yep, those teams will really bring the high quality NZ so desire.
It's all bullshit posturing and ego. The reality is both countries need each other and the simplest solution (at least for next year) is to incorporate the 10 already existing teams most likely to be able to play each other into a single competition.
Financial limitations and travel restrictions make anything else highly unlikely to be viable. It's worth keeping in mind that 2021 is just going to be another stop-gap, regardless of what is agreed.
If ego stops a TT going ahead, well both nations deserve what they get.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
The 'competitiveness' argument is bullshit as evidenced by NZRU's posturing for a Japanese/Pasifika team. Yep, those teams will really bring the high quality NZ so desire.
They satisfy two different criteria:
- Access to wads of money,
- Being seen to support Pacific Rugby.
Neither of which Australian teams provide., They're there because a five-six team competition isn't sustainable.
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Good to know NZRU are easily bought, then.
all Australia bring to the table are teams that actually exist and are willing to participate.
You need at least some of our teams and that gives us the leverage we need to say all or none.
As ive alread said. Even if you are right, the cost to us of cutting another team is too great to ever accept. So NZRU can just cut the gordion knot and accept the simplest solution or we can all go down in a steaming heap of shit.
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When push comes to shove, surely the NZRU won't sink the whole comp just because they think the Force might be easybeats.
While it's nice to see the quality of play factored into decision making, it would have been nicer for SANZAAR to have given it just one fkn iota of thought in the previous 15 years or so.
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Yeah I reckon we'll have to end up with 5+5 and a PI to come, Ozzie won't take anything less, and the fact is there is no one else. I mentioned it at the start that any member of the NZR board needs to stop the drugs if they think Ozzie will take anything less than 4, and probably 5. It might not be best for a great comp, but it is political reality. In addition no way you could cobble together some random team of left over PI players for next season - with pre season starting in 6 month. I agree that NZR are right in that a comp with 5+3+1 would bne ideal. But we're not going to get it, and Ozzie media re right that we need them as much as they need us. The whole 'we invite expressions of interest' before even talking to SA, let alone Oz, is pretty shit. It should have been done behind closed doors.
I'm just still hopeful this is all negotiation posturing, but maybe both boards are incompetent, over optimistic, jingoistic idiots. In a time of Covid we need real politik.
