2019 School Rugby
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Just watched Chris Grinter from RBHS on TV and had to laugh. I'm not against kids changing schools but he comes across as the moral police is classic! The only reason they are upset is that it is now happening to them! They have spent the last 20 years recruiting players from 'lesser' schools and have been stated that it is the opportunity their schools provide and then get upset when it happens to them? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Moral highground aside I think its important from the players at the schools as well.
When I was at Lindisfarne had a mate who got kicked out of Kings, his dad was loaded sent him down to our school (this was in 5th form).
He came down to watch our 1st 15 trials at the end of it he was talking to our coach about paying to get 3 big islanders one at hooker/prop one loosey and a big midfielder. The coach turned it down and none of us as players wanted it because we had played for the school from 3rd form (some from form 1) and had earnt the right.
I get it if a kid randomly comes on his own or parents shift to a new area thats different. When you put in hard work and have pride for the school and jersey you don't want to see yourself or mates miss out on the chance to play 1st 15.
For the record it would have been pointless as we stil would have had a million points put on us by very good HBHS and NBHS.
Wanganui Collegiate imported some big po po's into their first 15 from memory. Pretty sure that was the case and one went on one of his high school years to play for wanganui in 3rd div.
Scots and St Kents both played as in yearly quads and scots didn't win their first game in it until 2002 (they happened to beat us after having 10 starters injured a week earlier). St Kents weren't amazing when we played them either they were usually challanged by STAC.
Was surprised a few years later to see Scots and St Kents in National Finals.
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Does anyone know how many rugby teams St Kents has compared to the other 1A schools?
My understanding is that they don't have that many teams in the lower grades so have less players to develop from year 9 that can become future 1st XV players. If that is correct, they have a very top-heavy structure.
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@98blueandgold said in 2019 School Rugby:
Just watched Chris Grinter from RBHS on TV and had to laugh. I'm not against kids changing schools but he comes across as the moral police is classic! The only reason they are upset is that it is now happening to them! They have spent the last 20 years recruiting players from 'lesser' schools and have been stated that it is the opportunity their schools provide and then get upset when it happens to them? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That really does highlight the hypocrisy across the board of this issue.
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When Kevin Fallon was at MAGS they had a football academy that attracted the best players from all over NZ. Their 1st XI dominated the national tournaments. This was before the current principal's time but it does highlight this was/is happening in all sports and a lot of schools.
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Chester Drawsreplied to 98blueandgold on 6 Dec 2018, 00:48 last edited by Chester Draws 6 Dec 2018, 00:52
@98blueandgold said in 2019 School Rugby:
'Poaching' is a technicality. The only way a school can be caught doing this is if a staff member/employee of the school is caught, with evidence i.e. and eye-witness who will testify who witnessed the approach.
If they get another person/kid/friend anyone not employed by the school to say "I think you should contact the school" it is not classified as poaching. Schools can then say that they are not 'actively' recruiting players using this, as long as it can be proved the first contact was made by the parent.
You can see how easy it is to get around the rules. In my time involved in 1st XV rugby I have seen many accusations but only one that has gone even close to being upheld.
I guarantee that all schools do this to some degree but it is 'within' the rules which are incredibly loose and impossible to enforce.
Good watching though!Absolutely the way it is done. It is easy to achieve and impossible to prove. When the Principal says "we don't poach" they don't mean "we don't take poached players", they mean "my staff don't personally do the poaching".
I've seen a boy at the school I was teaching at approached pretty every year by "interested parties", to change to a Boys High School. The BHS knew it was happening, but they didn't care, since they personally were not doing the approaching. We had a rather dodgy sports director for a while who used to have some contacts he relied on to do this stuff for him, and he would indicate the boy he wanted them to target (not rugby, but a sport we were national level competitive in). It was blatant, but unprovable.
The more aggressive schools simply go to the islands. Since that is not poaching, it is perfectly legal. And so some NZ kid misses out to an islander (and I've seen a few come over that barely speak English).
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@chester-draws said in 2019 School Rugby:
@98blueandgold said in 2019 School Rugby:
'Poaching' is a technicality. The only way a school can be caught doing this is if a staff member/employee of the school is caught, with evidence i.e. and eye-witness who will testify who witnessed the approach.
If they get another person/kid/friend anyone not employed by the school to say "I think you should contact the school" it is not classified as poaching. Schools can then say that they are not 'actively' recruiting players using this, as long as it can be proved the first contact was made by the parent.
You can see how easy it is to get around the rules. In my time involved in 1st XV rugby I have seen many accusations but only one that has gone even close to being upheld.
I guarantee that all schools do this to some degree but it is 'within' the rules which are incredibly loose and impossible to enforce.
Good watching though!Absolutely the way it is done. It is easy to achieve and impossible to prove. When the Principal says "we don't poach" they don't mean "we don't take poached players", they mean "my staff don't personally do the poaching".
I've seen a boy at the school I was teaching at approached pretty every year by "interested parties", to change to a Boys High School. The BHS knew it was happening, but they didn't care, since they personally were not doing the approaching. We had a rather dodgy sports director for a while who used to have some contacts he relied on to do this stuff for him, and he would indicate the boy he wanted them to target (not rugby, but a sport we were national level competitive in). It was blatant, but unprovable.
The more aggressive schools simply go to the islands. Since that is not poaching, it is perfectly legal. And so some NZ kid misses out to an islander (and I've seen a few come over that barely speak English).
that was happening before rugby was a career, so i can imagine it's even worse now.
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@chris now that to me seems a strange decision.
School-wise and rugby-wise it doesnt seem to make a huge deal of sense.
So lets say St. Kents didnt 'poach/recruit' him, but him and his family approached St.K to go there, what sort of thing can they offer him, at that age to make his last year of school and rugby better than staying in Christchurch, where the path to M10 Cup, Super rugby and potentially ABs would seem the better choice...
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@chris there is a little more to this story around why he left but again not sure if Christs are the greatest example to choose. Along with St Andrews are the two worst schools for buying in players and targeting other UC championship team players.
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What I don't like about this (aside from the hypocrisy) is that it targets the kids, not just the ones who are coming in and who they want stood down for big matches, but also the other ones in the team who are having their rugby program ripped to shreds through no fault of their own. It doesn't sit right with me.
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@98blueandgold Rotorua did win the National comp that year too but had no one selected in the NZSS squad. Most were not eligible due to the New Zealand Schools eligibility criteria.
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@98blueandgold haha yes there is. I had the guy who’s missus he shagged in my team this year
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@chchfanatic said in 2019 School Rugby:
@98blueandgold haha yes there is. I had the guy who’s missus he shagged in my team this year
oooh scandalous!
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3 or 4 years ago CC was beaten by CBHS by about 80 points. The then headmaster got sick of old boys vigorously complaining about rowing getting all the attention and rugby being neglected. So he decided to do something about it.
They don’t get a lot of boys in on scholarships but have put a huge focus on the coaches - mostly old mates of Reuben Thorne and Steve Dods.
Re Punivai: chchfanatic is right on the money! -
@Wally I agree that they have had a good period with the recent group has come through from year 9 but they have recruited within that (lock from Burnside 1stXV + others) issue for them is like a St Kents they do not have much coming through after that and have been very active over the last 12 months trying to fill the void, I know this first hand!
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St. Kents must be absolutely overjoyed at this outcome. They will be in no danger of not winning the 1A competition in 2019 after they win all their competition matches by default.
Played 10 Won 10 Drawn 0 Lost 0 Pts for 0 Points Against 0 Bonus Points 10 Competition Points 50 -
Haven't they spouted that it is the academic opportunities they are offering outsiders rather than sporting (or most specifically rugby) opportunities. If so then I await with bated breath the announcement of a thirty stone Iraqi refugee dwarf being offered a scholarship.
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Something that has been totally missed.
Parents or guardians sign off these decisions for what they feel is in the best interests of their children.
I spoke to a father today who’s son went to St Kentigern College a few years back,his son is currently in one of the NZ super rugby squads ,without the scholarship his son received ,he doubts wether the same doors would have opened had he stayed at the rural college he was attending.
I personally hate the word poached being used,as the parents and guardians are the ones that sign off on these decisions at the end of the day. -
This has been an issue for years in Super 8n rugby. 6 of the Super 8 rugby teams give financial scholarships for players. The only ones that do not are Tauranga BIys College and Gisborne (I think), that hamstrings them massively. TBC has lost a few good players, but are maminly hurt from not attracting others. Obviously some schools are still magnet schools because of sport, but that is at year 9 level, not year 13!
I love the action the other schools are taking. Fuck St Kents. They want to be dicks, then take the fact nobody will want to play your school.
I do find it rich that Hamilton Boys and Rotorua Boys are bleating.... they rely on poaching 100% -
@baron-silas-greenback is it any different to all the club players who use to gravitate to Ponsonby back in the day when they were just about unbeatable..
At the end of the day,,the kids and their parents made the decisions to move St Kentigern..can you not see that..? -
Baron Silas Greenbackreplied to Steven Harris on 6 Dec 2018, 07:55 last edited by Baron Silas Greenback 6 Dec 2018, 07:56
@steven-harris said in 2019 School Rugby:
@baron-silas-greenback is it any different to all the club players who use to gravitate to Ponsonby back in the day when they were just about unbeatable..
At the end of the day,,the kids and their parents made the decisions to move St Kentigern..can you not see that..?Yes it is very different. Pretty obvious.
And thanks captain obvious for stating how it is the kids and parents who make the decision. Pure genius.... here I was thiking that the kid and parents didnt decide. Your post was sooo enlightening
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@baron-silas-greenback I wonder what desion you would make given the same opportunity..?.
That’s the angle your missing ..! -
@steven-harris said in 2019 School Rugby:
@baron-silas-greenback I wonder what desion you would make given the same opportunity..?.
That’s the angle your missing ..!Where did I at any stage blame the kids or parents. I didnt. So try again and this time actually address the points I made, not the ones you wish I had.
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While the reasons and machinations may be complex what this boils down to (in the Auckland case) is that the schools in the comp feel that things have become unbalanced and if left unchecked they may as well not bother participating.
The recruitment happens at most schools that set themselves up to use rugby as an identity but I guess they are confirming what St Kents say in that they are doing it too well.
St Kents need to realise that if they are going to load up and gain a big advantage they may not have anyone to play against.I have seen this kind of thing happen before in Wellington where it was accepted that there were haves and have nots and that good players would gravitate toward the haves but when schools were already strong and actively sought to be stronger at the expense of others pressure was put on them by College Sport to reign it in for the good of the comp. No one is interested in a foregone conclusion.
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@baron-silas-greenback I don't know about the other Super 8 schools, but all but one of this year's Napier's 1st XV players attended the school since year 9 and the only exception joined the school in year 10 and came from Lindisfarne. No scholarships to lure players from other schools to NBHS.
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Remember when the St Kent’s head boy and 1st XV captain got kicked out of school a few years ago for getting a BJ in the gym? Lol
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Chester Drawsreplied to Steven Harris on 6 Dec 2018, 20:50 last edited by Chester Draws 6 Dec 2018, 20:53
@steven-harris said in 2019 School Rugby:
Something that has been totally missed.
Parents or guardians sign off these decisions for what they feel is in the best interests of their children.
I spoke to a father today who’s son went to St Kentigern College a few years back,his son is currently in one of the NZ super rugby squads ,without the scholarship his son received ,he doubts wether the same doors would have opened had he stayed at the rural college he was attending.
I personally hate the word poached being used,as the parents and guardians are the ones that sign off on these decisions at the end of the day.Argument by a single case, isn't very helpful. What about the boy who had a miserable time at St Kents, and went back to his old school. And still became AB captain? What about the kid poached Year 13 who broke his leg early on, and then had a thoroughly miserable year at a new school with no friends and dropped out of rugby completely?
The kids who are poached late (years 12 and 13) are in no danger of missing provincial selections. They are poached precisely because they are already outstanding. The schools take all the hard work of the boy and junior coaches at another school and take the credit for it. (St Kents still have Kieran Read as one of their Old Boys who went on to great things, the rude pricks.)
The slightly more ethical schools take them in at Year 9. Then the kids at least spend their whole time at the one school and have sensible friendships. And I would argue quite a lot better educations too.
There was a fairly thoughtful piece in the Herald about this. There is very little evidence going to those top rugby schools leads to good professional careers. Hamilton BHS has a terrible rate of conversion to pro rugby. If you are a standout player, then you stand out even more at a "lesser" school. There's no way Mitch Jacobsen was going to be missed because his parents chose not to send him to HBHS.
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It's likely only the private schools that offer sports scholarships in the true sense of the word, because the cost of their school fees are prohibitive to a large part of the community. When you look at the demographic of St Kents star rugby players most wouldn't live in the area and wouldn't be going to the school if their parents had to pay the tuition fees themselves. I have family who live in their zone and there's no way they could afford to send their kids there as an average middle class family.
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So in summary: St Kents have crossed "the line" but "the line" is kind of a squiggle that all the other teams conveniently sit on the right side of after appointing themselves placers of "the line".
As far as im concerned if a player attends a school they should be able to play for that school.
If the schools are so desperate that they want to pay players to attend their school or give the scholarships then so be it.It's highschool rugby ffs.
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so from reading this page, every school does it except the school a poster went to.
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@pukunui I read one article today where another school claimed that parents of kids going to St. Kents would lie about how thier child ended up there for fear of jeopardising thier childs rugby/education.
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@mariner4life said in 2019 School Rugby:
so from reading this page, every school does it except the school a poster went to.
I specifically said my school had a sports director guilty of precisely what St Kents do. True, we were much worse in another sport, but I never said we were snow white.
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@chester-draws think you take things a bit too literally, TSF is hyperbole capital...
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