Who does the TSF want to Win? Aus vs Ireland
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@crucial I don't even necessarily think the Irish lifts were poor. They were just taking on Folau, who is an absolute master in these situations.
I do know that without any lifting, Folau would have won all 3 contests 3-0 and it's highly unlikely that in any situation the Irish fella would have come down hard.
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This link goes to a pdf-file with the Judicial Committee's decision: https://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/worldrugby/document/2018/06/28/309afac7-797d-4fcc-9c92-5401ec0ee38f/180627-WR-Decision-Israel-Folau.pdf
This is NOT the appeal decision, but the original decision against which Folau has lodged his appeal.
The decision only discusses the most serious incident, the one that led to the Citing Commissioner Warning. The reason for that is that once the CCW is upheld, there is no need to discuss the other ones.
These are IMO the most interesting paragraphs:
This how they determined the sanction (didn't admit guilt, didn't show remorse, nevertheless a 50% reduction):
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@majorrage said in Who does the TSF want to Win? Aus vs Ireland:
@stargazer thanks for posting that - much clearer.
FWIW, Here's what I think.
Challenge 1 - Folau is in textbook position to go for the ball. It's a fucking fantastic, perfectly positioned athletic jump, which I don't want to see ruled out of the game. Look at the height on him, it's magnificent. POM jumps for it as well, and (unsurprisingly) Folau clatters into him. As POM has a fulcrum on his arse of a supporter, the clash upends him.
Challenge 2 (the yellow card) - first half is same again, however once the ball is gone, Folau naturally balances himself by bringing his arm down. This may or may not (as you can't say he clearly and obviously GRABBED him) swing POM around. However, that is the end result, and the evidence does suggest that. So I actually agree with the yellow card with no further sanction here.
Challenge 3 (citing warning) - Folau jumps and bats the ball back. As doing so, his arms come to rest on an already massively unbalanced POM whose being held by his arse only about 2.5 metres above the pitch. As he's already completely unbalanced, any action from Folau is going to upend him.
So, its' quite obvious in my view what needs to change.
- You CANNOT lift players outside lineouts. Absolute no-no. It puts them in dangerous positions.
- Folau should win his appeal. I'm not saying the YC is wrong, in fact I think it's right as he grabbed him in the air. But realistically, if he was either standing on his feet, or jumping by his own momentum without support, he would have been fine.
I'm not going to go all NH media like and suggest the Irish players should be punished - of course not, they did nothing wrong. BUT, their actions contributed just as much as Folau to the up-endings. Aerial battles should NOT be taken out of the game - they are a joy to watch. But why should less athletic forwards be able to compete by artificial methods?
Just so you know, the order in which Stargazer posted the clips is 3, 2, 1 in terms of their occurrence in the match.
Folau came in from side on POM with his elbow striking his face in opening minute of match - incident 1 - not commented on at all as far as I’m aware. (First time I’ve seen this clip).
Second time was around 9 minutes into match - nothing done by ref or TMO. But it was picked up by CCW and which Folau was subsequently suspended for a week and this was maintained despite Folau’s subsequent appeal. I agree that he unnecessarily pulled POM down.
Third time was around 20 minutes and for which POM had to go off and Folau received a YC.
Looking at the third incident again, the ball quite clearly goes in POMs hands. Folau’s rising right hand whacks into back of POMs hands causing him to lose ball and it falls. Folau’s right hand then closes on POMs right wrist and holds there whilst Folau’s left arm/hand goes around POMs chest (logo on shirt) and pulls sufficiently for POM to rotate in the direction of Folau’s arm as well as backwards from Folau’s hand on POMs wrist. As I see it, he used POM to steady/balance his own descent. YC fully deserved.
Despite what appears my obvious green bias, the question arises as to what happens the next time? None of us mind the competition for the ball, it’s what happens between the two players as a result.
In theory, could POM or any other player use one of his hands to grab hold of Folau to balance himself or indeed to fend him off going for the ball? And in so doing unbalance Folau causing him to fall badly or use him to break his fall?
If lifters were to be banned then does the opposing team decide to not jump and just wait for Folau to land and all pile in?
What’s the position with offside? POM batted/dropped the ball forward towards Aus goal line - so if any Irish player picks it up they’re offside anyway? In which case, what’s the value in jumping in the first place if you’re unlikely to catch and retain it?
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@barbarian The lift wasn't the issue; Folau pulling down O'Mahony was (according to the documents). In the non-incident shown in Mitchell's tweet, there was no one pulling down DHP.
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@stargazer said in Who does the TSF want to Win? Aus vs Ireland:
@barbarian The lift wasn't the issue; Folau pulling down O'Mahony was (according to the documents). In the non-incident shown in Mitchell's tweet, there was no one pulling down DHP.
But when Kearney places his free hand on DHP's chest, isn't he doing exactly the same thing Folau did?
The only difference is that DHP absorbed the contact, and didn't have a lifter/fulcrum to exacerbate the problem?
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@barbarian said in Who does the TSF want to Win? Aus vs Ireland:
@stargazer said in Who does the TSF want to Win? Aus vs Ireland:
@barbarian The lift wasn't the issue; Folau pulling down O'Mahony was (according to the documents). In the non-incident shown in Mitchell's tweet, there was no one pulling down DHP.
But when Kearney places his free hand on DHP's chest, isn't he doing exactly the same thing Folau did?
The only difference is that DHP absorbed the contact, and didn't have a lifter/fulcrum to exacerbate the problem?
Aaaah. TBH I was wondering what the fuck DHP was doing that was similar to Folau.
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@barbarian said in Who does the TSF want to Win? Aus vs Ireland:
@stargazer said in Who does the TSF want to Win? Aus vs Ireland:
@barbarian The lift wasn't the issue; Folau pulling down O'Mahony was (according to the documents). In the non-incident shown in Mitchell's tweet, there was no one pulling down DHP.
But when Kearney places his free hand on DHP's chest, isn't he doing exactly the same thing Folau did?
The only difference is that DHP absorbed the contact, and didn't have a lifter/fulcrum to exacerbate the problem?
It’s the exact same as the YC incident except that
Kearney is to the side of DHP with his feet probably six inches off the ground
He has jumped up in the same direction as DHP not across into DHP
His right hand is in the middle of DHPs chest
Kearney left hand is reaching for the ball not wrapped around DHPs wrist pulling him backwards
DHP is between Kearney’s arms with one in front and one in back.
DHP staggered back and sat on his arse afterwardsOther than that, they’re identical.
Well POM doesn’t use as much shaving bronzer as Ladyboy Kearney, I suspect. Munster men use the bloodied head of a sheep to dry themselves after the traditional S&S in the morning.
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They aren't identical, I'd agree.
An on rewatching the Folau challenges, there certainly isn't the same 'pulling down' motion (that we can tell from the screenshot, anyway).
I'm not suggesting Kearney deserved a yellow card or suspension, but there does need to be more clarity in the laws about what contact is acceptable in the air in those situations.
It's clearly different on kick-offs, where players are trying to bat the ball back to their own side, and thus have a free hand they can use to stabilise themselves on the defending player.
