Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket
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@majorrage said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
Does it matter if he knew or not?
He's the coach, a selector and in charge of moulding the team. He is just as culpable.
But if he didn't directly know.
There's a big difference between being sent home immediately in disgrace, and being fired in the winter for not having a strong enough guiding hand on the tiller.
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Been hung out to dry, thrown under the bus, tarred with the same brush etc etc can do that to you.
Different circumstances but it has the same feel to it when the NZ cricket team were caught up in that blast in Sri Lanka I 92. Team was divided, some wanted to stay, most wanted to leave. Others threatened over their career if they didnāt toe the line.
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@virgil said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
Could be mostly gossip but sounds about right, makes you wonder if they should have flown over more replacements. Will the bowlers hearts be in this?
Oh my word. Who does the editing for the hearld?
Aussie Test great Gavin Robertson told Fox Sports News on Tuesday night the morale within the dressing room is so bad that players want to leave the tour and abandon the Fourth Test, beginning Friday.
Bwaa haaa haaa
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This is another really good read, from a journo on the ground:
Theyāll be taking Steve Smithās faces off the cereal packets. Removing his image from the poles and buildings as if to signal the regime change. Heās fallen.
Itās heartbreaking ā even if he does deserve everything thatās coming his way, although I suspect he doesnāt deserve all of it. This pile-on is unseemly but speaks volumes. I want to hug him and say it will be all right but I know it wonāt.
The ceiling was sagging in the dressing room long before he entered it. The roof had been leaking for years. Nobody was interested in the rising damp because there was so much sunshine. Nobody noticed how low they had to stoop.
And then it caved in. And every indiscretion and negligence of past and current tenants fell on the head of Smith and whoever was with him that lunchtime on day three at Cape Town.
David Warner was certainly one. Thereās a sense that every time thereās a bin fire in cricket the opener has been seen wandering from the scene with a pocketbook of matches, an empty can of petrol and a āwasnāt meā shrug.
Itās not all him. The contempt has been building for years. Opposition players have danced a jig of delight that this has caught up with the Australians. They arenāt holding back in public and in private.
The blame game has started in Australian cricketās inner circle. Theyāre under siege and turning on each other. Cameron Bancroft is collateral damage. A man in his eighth Test he knew nothing but the environment he walked into. He was stupid and he deserves punishment but the fact the match referee didnāt even see fit to suspend him for a game suggests something. He says he was āin the wrong place at the wrong timeā. He was, Nuremberg style, just following orders.
Warner, the ball maintenance man, will argue that he has just been doing his job. The bowlers benefit from it. The team benefited from it. The coach, well, the coach sets the agenda. Heās not exactly the retiring type.
Smithās clumsy attempt to protect the identity of his co-conspirator(s) had an unfortunate side-effect. Josh Hazlewood and Mitchell Starc were rightly upset and wanted it corrected.
Back to Smith because I canāt shake the sadness about his demise. Here was one of the most personable, least calculating, more talented and one of the more genuinely decent people to skipper the Australian team in recent decades.
Thatās no knock on the others, but Smith has an openness, even naivety, that few of those men had.
Here was a man with no pretensions. An enthusiast. In Port Elizabeth heād been out with his drone (the fad thatās keeping them occupied this tour) and heād filmed a pod of dolphins swimming beyond the waves. It was spectacular footage and he couldnāt wait to show it, standing in his towel in the foyer of the team hotel, as excited as a kid with a new toy. Which he was.
Smith entered the highest office in Australian sport wearing shorts and thongs, opened the door and greeted all comers with a goofy grin.
And, boy, can he play. Gifted with natural talent but not on the scale of an AB de Villiers who has had his bat kissed by God, Smith worked and works and worked and works and grafted a goofy approach that has seen him achieve results in his career no batsman, Bradman aside, had.
The outrage is searing, crippling even. People are concerned for him. He cuts such a lonely, devastated figure in the corridors of the hotel. Most of the others have their families with them, for once he is flying solo.
Itās a mark of his character that he saw a bus headed for Bancroft, knew that it wasnāt right and attempted to throw himself in front of it. He knew he couldnāt completely protect the opener but he wanted to share his pain. How many would have done that? How much has it cost Smith?
If heād kept quiet this could have been āmanagedā. Maybe if he had his time again he would. What sort of person voluntarily risks all they have achieved?
This time a few days back Smith had the world at his feet. He was the friendly face of Australiaās favourite sport. Indian franchises were willing to pay him the best part of $2.5 million to turn out for a month or so. Australia paid him around $2m just to play cricket. How good was life?
The ground that was at his feet has crumbled and Smith is plummeting, hitting a world at every plunge like the character in Emily Dickinsonās poem. Thereās a funereal air around the Australian cricket team in Cape Town but thereās nobody sending flowers or notes of sympathy.
I want to understand what happened in the dressing room that lunch time. You might want to bury Smithy but it shouldnāt stop you taking the time to wonder how this god awful mess came about.
The pressures of captaining the Australian team are immense. Greg Chappell talked about the mental strain that led to the underarm moment that Trevor Chappell says has haunted him the rest of his life. Every time he enters a room thereās an announcement from the PA, āhere is Trevor underarm Chappell, the man who brought disgrace on Australian cricketā. Heās almost an old man now but a moment in his youth, in another century, stalks him.
Captains go crazy with the strain. Most crack at some point. Sometimes itās calamitous, other times just a little unsettling. Ricky Ponting turned on an England coach in unseemly scenes as the Ashes slipped away, he took a catch once and threw the ball into the turf as a World Cup slipped away. He did it because another fielder collided with him. Steve Smith was his name.
Allan Border is a simple man, an exception to lifeās usual course in that he has grown less grumpy with age. He snapped regularly as skipper, said things to his teammates that he regretted, but it was his release valve. He blew up once and was briefly on strike over selection. Refusing to go with the team, yelling on the phone instead of playing.
Michael Clarke got himself into some dark places. His captaincy was hanging by a thread on the day Phillip Hughes died. He had gone off the reservation and Cricket Australia was considering disciplinary action against him.
In Joseph Conradās classic novel Lord Jim, Jim is a friendly young man who makes a critical bad decision in the heat of the moment. Unlike others who are possibly more culpable he faces the music, but the shame haunts him for the rest of his life.
Smith will be beating himself harder than anybody can beat him over this. Heās done something foolish and heās paying for it like few before him. Politicians lie and cheat and stay in office unscathed. Everybody does something they are ashamed of.
The greatest shame is that moment of treachery is so out of character with everything else about Steve Smith.
Maybe I had him wrong, but I am pretty sure I donāt. He canāt remain as captain and he canāt play cricket for Australia again for some time, but he should not be exiled or excoriated forever.
PETER LALOR
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@barbarian said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
This is another really good read, from a journo on the ground:
Paywall unfortunately
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Looks to be shaping up for a wet bus ticket punishment tomorrow. What is the bet no one from outside the Aussie team was interviewed on this? Sutherland basically gave the team a 24 hour heads up to get their stories straight and implicate as few people as possible.
Warner is a muppet sure. But in the universe that Sutherland lives in where this is the only occasion it has happened, Lehmann didn't know and these three were the only ones in the know - how does Warner, the vice captain, deserve a punishment remotely close to the captain or the perpetrator? When has the office of vice captain been held responsible for anything?
Now in reality, from Jim Maxwell...
Warner's the one who really should wear most of this, and I'll be very surprised if he plays for Australia again.
He's clearly been ostracised by the rest of the players, I could see that in the body language on the plane, so I think he's pretty close to persona non grata from here on.
My understanding of the conversation is that it went like this. They were about to go out after lunch, and Smith saw Bancroft and Warner in collusion.
He said "what are you blokes doing? I don't want to know what you're doing", and then he went out onto the field.
Unfortunately, he didn't realise exactly how dire the act they were about to perpetrate on the field was. The cameras got them and Smith is going to cop a ban.
Warner was the point man for a while and knew how to do it, the heat was on from the SA media and he taught/encourage Bancroft what to do - its the only explanation that makes any sense.
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@virgil said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
Think it goes way beyond ball tampering Nick, thatās why the backlash has been so over the top. ( especially back home in Oz)
Let me quote you again, and highlight the important bits:
Integrity and Australian cricket team simply donāt belong together in the same sentence, never has never will.
I think you'd agree the integrity of the team around the Border and Waugh captaincy periods was pretty robust. Going back further to Bradman during bodyline, if you like.
If you're going to start throwing the word "never" around, then the ABs are universally despised because Pinetree ended Catchpole's career. Is that a fair statement?
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@booboo said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
@barbarian said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
This is another really good read, from a journo on the ground:
Paywall unfortunately
The tragedy of Steve Smithās fall from grace
Theyāll be taking Steve Smithās faces off the cereal packets. Removing his image from the poles and buildings as if to signal the regime change. Heās fallen.
Itās heartbreaking ā even if he does deserve everything thatās coming his way, although I suspect he doesnāt deserve all of it. This pile-on is unseemly but speaks volumes. I want to hug him and say it will be all right but I know it wonāt.
The ceiling was sagging in the dressing room long before he entered it. The roof had been leaking for years. Nobody was interested in the rising damp because there was so much sunshine. Nobody noticed how low they had to stoop.
And then it caved in. And every indiscretion and negligence of past and current tenants fell on the head of Smith and whoever was with him that lunchtime on day three at Cape Town.
David Warner was certainly one. Thereās a sense that every time thereās a bin fire in cricket the opener has been seen wandering from the scene with a pocketbook of matches, an empty can of petrol and a āwasnāt meā shrug.
Itās not all him. The contempt has been building for years. Opposition players have danced a jig of delight that this has caught up with the Australians. They arenāt holding back in public and in private.
The blame game has started in Australian cricketās inner circle. Theyāre under siege and turning on each other. Cameron Bancroft is collateral damage. A man in his eighth Test he knew nothing but the environment he walked into. He was stupid and he deserves punishment but the fact the match referee didnāt even see fit to suspend him for a game suggests something. He says he was āin the wrong place at the wrong timeā. He was, Nuremberg style, just following orders.
Warner, the ball maintenance man, will argue that he has just been doing his job. The bowlers benefit from it. The team benefited from it. The coach, well, the coach sets the agenda. Heās not exactly the retiring type.
Smithās clumsy attempt to protect the identity of his co-conspirator(s) had an unfortunate side-effect. Josh Hazlewood and Mitchell Starc were rightly upset and wanted it corrected.
Back to Smith because I canāt shake the sadness about his demise. Here was one of the most personable, least calculating, more talented and one of the more genuinely decent people to skipper the Australian team in recent decades.
Thatās no knock on the others, but Smith has an openness, even naivety, that few of those men had.
Here was a man with no pretensions. An enthusiast. In Port Elizabeth heād been out with his drone (the fad thatās keeping them occupied this tour) and heād filmed a pod of dolphins swimming beyond the waves. It was spectacular footage and he couldnāt wait to show it, standing in his towel in the foyer of the team hotel, as excited as a kid with a new toy. Which he was.
Smith entered the highest office in Australian sport wearing shorts and thongs, opened the door and greeted all comers with a goofy grin.
And, boy, can he play. Gifted with natural talent but not on the scale of an AB de Villiers who has had his bat kissed by God, Smith worked and works and worked and works and grafted a goofy approach that has seen him achieve results in his career no batsman, Bradman aside, had.
The outrage is searing, crippling even. People are concerned for him. He cuts such a lonely, devastated figure in the corridors of the hotel. Most of the others have their families with them, for once he is flying solo.
Itās a mark of his character that he saw a bus headed for Bancroft, knew that it wasnāt right and attempted to throw himself in front of it. He knew he couldnāt completely protect the opener but he wanted to share his pain. How many would have done that? How much has it cost Smith?
If heād kept quiet this could have been āmanagedā. Maybe if he had his time again he would. What sort of person voluntarily risks all they have achieved?
This time a few days back Smith had the world at his feet. He was the friendly face of Australiaās favourite sport. Indian franchises were willing to pay him the best part of $2.5 million to turn out for a month or so. Australia paid him around $2m just to play cricket. How good was life?
The ground that was at his feet has crumbled and Smith is plummeting, hitting a world at every plunge like the character in Emily Dickinsonās poem. Thereās a funereal air around the Australian cricket team in Cape Town but thereās nobody sending flowers or notes of sympathy.
I want to understand what happened in the dressing room that lunch time. You might want to bury Smithy but it shouldnāt stop you taking the time to wonder how this god awful mess came about.
The pressures of captaining the Australian team are immense. Greg Chappell talked about the mental strain that led to the underarm moment that Trevor Chappell says has haunted him the rest of his life. Every time he enters a room thereās an announcement from the PA, āhere is Trevor underarm Chappell, the man who brought disgrace on Australian cricketā. Heās almost an old man now but a moment in his youth, in another century, stalks him.
Captains go crazy with the strain. Most crack at some point. Sometimes itās calamitous, other times just a little unsettling. Ricky Ponting turned on an England coach in unseemly scenes as the Ashes slipped away, he took a catch once and threw the ball into the turf as a World Cup slipped away. He did it because another fielder collided with him. Steve Smith was his name.
Allan Border is a simple man, an exception to lifeās usual course in that he has grown less grumpy with age. He snapped regularly as skipper, said things to his teammates that he regretted, but it was his release valve. He blew up once and was briefly on strike over selection. Refusing to go with the team, yelling on the phone instead of playing.
Michael Clarke got himself into some dark places. His captaincy was hanging by a thread on the day Phillip Hughes died. He had gone off the reservation and Cricket Australia was considering disciplinary action against him.
In Joseph Conradās classic novel Lord Jim, Jim is a friendly young man who makes a critical bad decision in the heat of the moment. Unlike others who are possibly more culpable he faces the music, but the shame haunts him for the rest of his life.
Smith will be beating himself harder than anybody can beat him over this. Heās done something foolish and heās paying for it like few before him. Politicians lie and cheat and stay in office unscathed. Everybody does something they are ashamed of.
The greatest shame is that moment of treachery is so out of character with everything else about Steve Smith.
Maybe I had him wrong, but I am pretty sure I donāt. He canāt remain as captain and he canāt play cricket for Australia again for some time, but he should not be exiled or excoriated forever.
PETER LALOR
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Culture is a function of leadership.
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@nta said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
the ABs are universally despised because Pinetree ended Catchpole's career. Is that a fair statement?
No. I would like to see proof that he deliberately did that.
Not much doubt that this was deliberate cheating.
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@nta yep, especially when your organisations culture is supposed to be driven by the people at the top, it isn't just those directly involved that should be sanctioned or impacted, there are others who will likely have been party to this, or at least known something was up and chose to ignore.
I mean who signs off the expense account for sandpaper form Bunnings
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@barbarian not sure I am quite buying that one Barb, it's a little overdone in the hyperbole stakes.
The narrative around Smith and the press conference has changed quite a bit. I'm not sure he really did selflessly dive in front of the bullet fired at "Bangers". It sounded more like when your parents get you to explain why you are in trouble.
"It's my responsibility, but bangers, tell them what you did".
I am starting to get the feeling that poor old Davey Warner is going to be the one hanged because he is the prize that will give CA the most reprieve if they execute him. A sort of wicked witch of the east for Australian Cricket (albeit built like a munchkin).
I'm still battling with the thought that any of the rumours of someone never playing for Australia again for this could be real though
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@mariner4life said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
@barbarian not sure I am quite buying that one Barb, it's a little overdone in the hyperbole stakes.
The narrative around Smith and the press conference has changed quite a bit. I'm not sure he really did selflessly dive in front of the bullet fired at "Bangers". It sounded more like when your parents get you to explain why you are in trouble.
"It's my responsibility, but bangers, tell them what you did".
I am starting to get the feeling that poor old Davey Warner is going to be the one hanged because he is the prize that will give CA the most reprieve if they execute him. A sort of wicked witch of the east for Australian Cricket (albeit built like a munchkin).
I'm still battling with the thought that any of the rumours of someone never playing for Australia again for this could be real though
If Steve Smith doesn't play for Aussie again, it will be a travesty! I hate enjoying to watch him bat. But I want to hate enjoying it more!
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Well put...
David Warner was certainly one. Thereās a sense that every time thereās a bin fire in cricket the opener has been seen wandering from the scene with a pocketbook of matches, an empty can of petrol and a āwasnāt meā shrug Itās not all him.
The contempt has been building for years. Opposition players have danced a jig of delight that this has caught up with the Australians. They arenāt holding back in public and in private.
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@Snowy you sound like my wife when I remind her of something she did: "WHEN did I say that? Give me proof!"
@taniwharugby said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
@nta yep, especially when your organisations culture is supposed to be driven by the people at the top, it isn't just those directly involved that should be sanctioned or impacted, there are others who will likely have been party to this, or at least known what was up and chose to ignore.
I'm not suggesting that Sutherland was party to the ball tampering or on-field skullduggery of course, but that his time as CEO has coincided with some pretty fucking ordinary behaviour on field.
Maybe its coincidental, but at the same time he gives the impression of a bloke who will do anything to hang onto the job, not understanding that the role cricket plays in our culture is much more than just him getting squillions to dye his hair and look po-faced at pressers.
Michael Clarke did make some good points about accountability over his time in the Test team: back in the day it was the front office and back office. Coach, captain, selector made decisions. Game was played. Now its board of selectors, high performance manager, head coach + assistants making decisions.
I mean who signs off the expense account for sandpaper form Bunnings
Well played.
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@barbarian Yeah - it's a bit unfortunate that it's Smith who has taken the fall - I thought he was the most likable Australian captain since Tubby Taylor.
I'd imagine we'll get a 60 minutes type interview from someone (probably Smith) in a couple of months.
If they hang Warner completely out to dry, we might get a whole kaboodle of beans spilled.
I'll be surprised if any of them get more than a six month ban - though Bancroft's position was probably under serious threat on form related issues, so he may pay the highest price. I'll be pretty surprised if we never see Warner in international cricket again.
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@nta said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
@virgil said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
Think it goes way beyond ball tampering Nick, thatās why the backlash has been so over the top. ( especially back home in Oz)
Let me quote you again, and highlight the important bits:
Integrity and Australian cricket team simply donāt belong together in the same sentence, never has never will.
I think you'd agree the integrity of the team around the Border and Waugh captaincy periods was pretty robust. Going back further to Bradman during bodyline, if you like.
If you're going to start throwing the word "never" around, then the ABs are universally despised because Pinetree ended Catchpole's career. Is that a fair statement?
I had nothing but absolute admiration for Border and Waugh. I wished NZ cricket had a couple of guys as good as them.
I don't remember seeing Bradman play but I hear he did ok.
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@mn5 said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
I had nothing but absolute admiration for Border and Waugh. I wished NZ cricket had a couple of guys as good as them.
And both could get cranky, sure. As well as aggressive. But were they Warners? Nup.
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@nta said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
@mn5 said in Convicts v Marxist Land Thieves - Crucket:
I had nothing but absolute admiration for Border and Waugh. I wished NZ cricket had a couple of guys as good as them.
And both could get cranky, sure. As well as aggressive. But were they Warners? Nup.
Absolutely not. They epitomised hard but fair.
