The Ashes
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@nta Nah that's not the point I was thinking of.
But I understand how it could be construed as such
As I said, I understand short bowling, I still play and face it and recommend it. My national team has been doing it for a while now
More the hullabaloo at the time and the sentiments and hand wringing from the cricket world - led by Australians I'll add, that we can't let that happen and the tragedy.
2-3 seasons later and a different perspective (often from the same people) dims the emotions and sensibilities.
The game is set up to encourage short bowling to tail enders when the pitches are so laterally dire and it won't change - a bit like 5m lineout drives as a tactic to win.
They're both inherently ugly, yet totally plausible
However I do think with a new generation of players who have never batted without a helmet might negate the effectiveness of the
lineout maulbouncers to shit batsmen. I expect all cricketers from the compulsory helmet generation to play short stuff betterWhen Phil Hughes died, NZ were in the middle of a test in the UAE, they refused to play for a day, then on the next day refused to bowl bouncers, by the day 3 they were back to bowling bouncers.
This was all independent of any 'Australian led hullabaloo'.
A guy died, this was new territory, these guys are human and there's no fucking textbook on the correct way to react or when to stop reacting.
Cut them some fucking slack.
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NZ didn't bowl bouncers on day 3. They didn't bowl any.
I never criticised the players. I said I fully understand the use of short bowling. I've played and coached the game as a job in the past
I find it odd that the commentators and match participants are all gung ho for short bowling up until someone gets hit then it's all "I hope he's alright. We don't like to see anyone hurt bla bla bla" then it's "right well we all know where this next one will be short again"
It's a strange situation.
Particularly when bowling short to tailenders
It's a highlighting of how quickly emotions and compassion dulls over time. Until the next injury.
Solution: let the grass grow for tests and go around bunnies not through them. Give the bowlers some conditions to work in
Stop fishing for outrage just because you can't grasp context. And stop making shit up to back your outrage. NZ did not bowl short in that test, nor did they celebrate wickets
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@Siam I agree that the bowlers should be given more to work with. So many pitches seem to have about an hours worth of life, then it's a complete fucking road for 4 days before we get a bit of variable bounce on the 5th.
That's one of the main reasons I like he pink ball. Just creates a few more situations where the bowlers can get a bit of swing and seam, which makes it a great contest between bat and ball.
India copped a lot of shit a while ago for producing pitches that turned sideways. I really enjoyed those tests though, probably went a bit too far the other way but it was awesome seeing batsmen fight for every run. Made for enthralling viewing.
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With modern ODI and T20, the game is already set up for batsmen.
Cut the bowlers some slack and give them "worse" test pitches. Then a genuine attacking bowler is worth having.
Currently too many bowlers are aiming to be run savers, because that's where all the money is.
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@no-quarter yep. I sometimes wonder if the novelty and spectator convenience of night tests masks the real appeal which is more chances for swing and seam bowling (they keep more grass on Adelaide oval to help preserve the ball) and a less run fest test match.
Jimmy Anderson didn't need to waste balls bowling short in his terrific spell the other day.
Just give the bowlers a bit of grass....as long as that doesn't reduce your revenue for the 5th day....which judging by the roads offered up in brisbane perth and Melbourne in the last 3 years, one has to wonder
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@no-quarter said in The Ashes:
@no-quarter said in The Ashes:
@no-quarter said in The Ashes:
Smith is an absolute freak. Right now he's seperated himself from the "chosen 4". Root, Kane and Kohli have some work to do to try & match his exploits.
Well, Root and Kohli do. Kane can't as we have no fucking tests scheduled.
What are you on about?
Kohli's has 6 double tons.. (3 of them in 2017)His last 4 innings reads 104*, 213, 243, 50..
.... against Sri Lanka at home... who haven't exactly set the world on fire recently...
Don't get me wrong, Kohli is some player, but Smith is in a league of his own at the moment.
One can always find excuses.. Smith is batting on a road..
Heck, M. Marsh is on 181*, goes to show how shit England are..Kohli has 6 test tons against Australia atm, with 5 of them in Australia.. I thought that was quite impressive..
Haha, OK, let's simplify things. Who has the better record overall?
Best overall record is a bit different to "separating himself from the chosen 4"
Smith has 22 tons, Kohli has 20. Still close. Kohli has more double tons.
In terms of runs, Root is close to Smith.
Smith's average is out there though, but it is inflated by his not outs.If anyone is a freak, it's Kohli.
Batting Rankings..
Kohli #2 tests, #1 ODIs, #1 T20
Root #3 test, #6 ODIs, #7 T20
Kane #5 tests, #10 ODIs, #4 T20
Smith is #1 in tests, not in top 10 for ODIs or T20.If you wanna see separation, just compare their ODI stats.
If you could only choose one of the chosen 4, I know who I'd choose. He ain't lesbian.
Without taking anything away from Smith the old not outs can help quite a bit. Pretty sure Brian Lara is second to only one man in terms of runs scored per test on average because when most of his contemporaries had around 20/30 not outs he had six in his entire career ( much of which was spent being the only decent player in a poor Windies team )
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Baron Silas Greenbackwrote on 17 Dec 2017, 00:29 last edited by Baron Silas Greenback 17 Dec 2017, 00:30
This has been a bloody boring test series. Had as many twists, turns and nuances as a ruler
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@baron-silas-greenback said in The Ashes:
This has been a bloody boring test series. Had as many twists, turns and nuances as a ruler
I'm sure the commentators pulling each other off at Marsh finally 'fulfilling his potential' and other such wank was amusing to hear though.
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@chester-draws said in The Ashes:
With modern ODI and T20, the game is already set up for batsmen.
Cut the bowlers some slack and give them "worse" test pitches. Then a genuine attacking bowler is worth having.
Currently too many bowlers are aiming to be run savers, because that's where all the money is.
Yup, perfectly happy for the ODIs and T20s to be roads. Preferably teams bat their overs and the run chase is "can they get there in time". That's great viewing and gives people going to the game value for money. But tests should be a genuine contest between bat and ball.
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@no-quarter said in The Ashes:
@chester-draws said in The Ashes:
With modern ODI and T20, the game is already set up for batsmen.
Cut the bowlers some slack and give them "worse" test pitches. Then a genuine attacking bowler is worth having.
Currently too many bowlers are aiming to be run savers, because that's where all the money is.
Yup, perfectly happy for the ODIs and T20s to be roads. Preferably teams bat their overs and the run chase is "can they get there in time". That's great viewing and gives people going to the game value for money. But tests should be a genuine contest between bat and ball.
India's utter obsession with batting over bowling doesn't help the world game either.
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The collapse is on!
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On the other hand, only six test matches out of 44 so far this year have been drawn and three of those were significantly rain affected.
So livelier pitches accompanied by four day test matches?
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Anyone played the Ashes game that has come out on Xbox one and PS4? Might have a look at it as a Christmas present to myself and my boy would be pretty keen too.
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@mikedogz Could just get yourself the Edmonds Cookbook, bake yourself an apple crumble and call it the "England batting line-up"!
Stoneman, Cook and Root all back in the hut and the rain prayer books are coming out of the kit bags.
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England’s four most senior players have generally been their most useless this series... possibly a bit harsh on Anderson, but otherwise...
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I've been listening to a few English cricket podcasts the last few weeks - their pain brings me great pleasure.
Anyway, they seem fixated on their lack of a genuine quick bowler. And while that's definitely something they don't have, I think it's a bit much to blame the series loss on that factor.
While they bemoan Anderson and Broad bowling mid-130s, they forget that Glenn McGrath bowled between 125-135 his entire career, and fucking dominated on Aussie tracks.
England have largely lost this series with insipid batting and gutless bowling at crucial periods. If Anderson could summon the energy and accuracy he did on day 3 in Adelaide then England would be right in this series.
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Vince gets bowled by an unplayable delivery from Starc.
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You often hear commentators talk about unplayable deliveries. Generally, they're ones that batsmen like Bradman or Tendulkar or Boycott etc, would have patted harmlessly back down the track.
That one Vince got was genuinely unplayable. Hits a crack and deviates viciously to knock out his off stump.
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@donsteppa Snap.
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@barbarian said in The Ashes:
I've been listening to a few English cricket podcasts the last few weeks - their pain brings me great pleasure.
Anyway, they seem fixated on their lack of a genuine quick bowler. And while that's definitely something they don't have, I think it's a bit much to blame the series loss on that factor.
While they bemoan Anderson and Broad bowling mid-130s, they forget that Glenn McGrath bowled between 125-135 his entire career, and fucking dominated on Aussie tracks.
England have largely lost this series with insipid batting and gutless bowling at crucial periods. If Anderson could summon the energy and accuracy he did on day 3 in Adelaide then England would be right in this series.
We had this useful bowler in the 80’s, took a few wickets here and there. Started as a tear away quick bowler but soon realised with less pace came greater control. No idea what his general pace was but I assume it would have been in the 130’s. Certainly not fast enough to give opposition batsmen the shits but he did alright, especially in Australia where his 9/52 at the Gabba is still considered one of the finest examples of bowling you will ever see
Pace can be handy but it can also be over rated. It’s not how fast the ball travels but where you put it and how often you can put it there.
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You often hear commentators talk about unplayable deliveries. Generally, they're ones that batsmen like Bradman or Tendulkar or Boycott etc, would have patted harmlessly back down the track.
That one Vince got was genuinely unplayable. Hits a crack and deviates viciously to knock out his off stump.
Watching it live my first reaction was to wonder why he'd played so far down the wrong line. Then on the replay it became clear just how unplayable it was, especially at that pace.
I reckon we'll see that one replayed a few times over the years...
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@barbarian said in The Ashes:
I've been listening to a few English cricket podcasts the last few weeks - their pain brings me great pleasure.
Anyway, they seem fixated on their lack of a genuine quick bowler. And while that's definitely something they don't have, I think it's a bit much to blame the series loss on that factor.
While they bemoan Anderson and Broad bowling mid-130s, they forget that Glenn McGrath bowled between 125-135 his entire career, and fucking dominated on Aussie tracks.
England have largely lost this series with insipid batting and gutless bowling at crucial periods. If Anderson could summon the energy and accuracy he did on day 3 in Adelaide then England would be right in this series.
Dunno that you can really blame the English for not being as good as McGrath.
Anderson is possibly approaching his league - if the ball is swinging - but, McGrath had a few crucial inches in height over Anderson that make a big difference in terms of bounce.
Overall, if you were picking a joint Ashes team at the start of the series you might pick six Aussies and five poms - but five of the first six names on the card would be Australian IMO.
Starc, Smith, Root, Hazlewood, Warner, Lyons - Anderson (but, possibly Cummins), Cook, Bairstow, Khawaja +Another (Stokes if he was available).
Realistically, I think the Aussie bowling is the largest point of difference - if the pace attack fails then Lyons is much better than Ali. The batsmen are facing a better attack, so even if they're equal to the Aussies, the Aussies have got an easier task. Smith has definitely outbatted Root though and for England to have any chance that couldn't happen.
Overall, I'd back the England batsmen with the Aussie bowlers to beat the Aussie batsmen with the England bowlers. Have to get Smith though!
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On the plus side for England, Overton has shown just how much he wants to be out there playing Test cricket..
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@donsteppa Warne to Gatting!
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I still think pace matters. Batsmen are really good; piches are benign, overhead in aus doesn't help, you need something. And that extra 5-10 everyh delivery can be the point of difference. At least from one of them.
People always say it's a shit era for bowling, it could just be that even the greats would average mid-20s these days.
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@barbarian said in The Ashes:
I've been listening to a few English cricket podcasts the last few weeks - their pain brings me great pleasure.
Anyway, they seem fixated on their lack of a genuine quick bowler. And while that's definitely something they don't have, I think it's a bit much to blame the series loss on that factor.
While they bemoan Anderson and Broad bowling mid-130s, they forget that Glenn McGrath bowled between 125-135 his entire career, and fucking dominated on Aussie tracks.
England have largely lost this series with insipid batting and gutless bowling at crucial periods. If Anderson could summon the energy and accuracy he did on day 3 in Adelaide then England would be right in this series.
Dunno that you can really blame the English for not being as good as McGrath.
Anderson is possibly approaching his league - if the ball is swinging - but, McGrath had a few crucial inches in height over Anderson that make a big difference in terms of bounce.
Overall, if you were picking a joint Ashes team at the start of the series you might pick six Aussies and five poms - but five of the first six names on the card would be Australian IMO.
Starc, Smith, Root, Hazlewood, Warner, Lyons - Anderson (but, possibly Cummins), Cook, Bairstow, Khawaja +Another (Stokes if he was available).
Realistically, I think the Aussie bowling is the largest point of difference - if the pace attack fails then Lyons is much better than Ali. The batsmen are facing a better attack, so even if they're equal to the Aussies, the Aussies have got an easier task. Smith has definitely outbatted Root though and for England to have any chance that couldn't happen.
Overall, I'd back the England batsmen with the Aussie bowlers to beat the Aussie batsmen with the England bowlers. Have to get Smith though!
I think I saw a stat somewhere that Root only has 3 tons outside of England. Compared to the chosen 4, he's the weakest in performing away from home.
Kane and Kohli have proven themselves in Australia vs their pace attack. Root not so much.
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@mariner4life Pace matters. Always has, always will.
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Well, that's the result pretty much fucked. They're saying rain tomorrow with possible thunderstorm.
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@mikedogz whatever works
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A big part of the WACA pitch character (apart from the famous pace & bounce) are those big long cracks that develop during the match, that run down the pitch.
Will they get that at the new stadium? I guess so if they are heat & soil related? Not much heat in this test, surprised to see the big cracks so early.
I assume the new stadium won't get the influence of the Fremantle Doctor.
WACA Crack:
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Now that big matches will move to the new stadium, will they plant some bloody trees on those WACA embankments?
Looks an awful ground to watch cricket at if over 30 degrees.
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another:
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NZ didn't bowl bouncers on day 3. They didn't bowl any.
I never criticised the players. I said I fully understand the use of short bowling. I've played and coached the game as a job in the past
I find it odd that the commentators and match participants are all gung ho for short bowling up until someone gets hit then it's all "I hope he's alright. We don't like to see anyone hurt bla bla bla" then it's "right well we all know where this next one will be short again"
It's a strange situation.
Particularly when bowling short to tailenders
It's a highlighting of how quickly emotions and compassion dulls over time. Until the next injury.
Solution: let the grass grow for tests and go around bunnies not through them. Give the bowlers some conditions to work in
Stop fishing for outrage just because you can't grasp context. And stop making shit up to back your outrage. NZ did not bowl short in that test, nor did they celebrate wickets
Sorry, to get back to this crap from earlier.
But NZ did eventually bowl some bouncers in that test, and it was all a bit awkward.
Can see the hawkeye pitch maps from cricinfo if you're interested.
First innings (all those bouncers would be from Day 1, the delayed second morning after news of his death they didn't bowl any).
Pak Second innings, bouncers eventually crept back in:
Hawkeye: Select seam bowlers, then go to Pitch Map.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11534/hawkeye/742615/new-zealand-vs-pakistan-3rd-test-new-zealand-tour-of-united-arab-emirates-2014-15 -
@barbarian said in The Ashes:
I've been listening to a few English cricket podcasts the last few weeks - their pain brings me great pleasure.
Anyway, they seem fixated on their lack of a genuine quick bowler. And while that's definitely something they don't have, I think it's a bit much to blame the series loss on that factor.
While they bemoan Anderson and Broad bowling mid-130s, they forget that Glenn McGrath bowled between 125-135 his entire career, and fucking dominated on Aussie tracks.
England have largely lost this series with insipid batting and gutless bowling at crucial periods. If Anderson could summon the energy and accuracy he did on day 3 in Adelaide then England would be right in this series.
We had this useful bowler in the 80’s, took a few wickets here and there. Started as a tear away quick bowler but soon realised with less pace came greater control. No idea what his general pace was but I assume it would have been in the 130’s. Certainly not fast enough to give opposition batsmen the shits but he did alright, especially in Australia where his 9/52 at the Gabba is still considered one of the finest examples of bowling you will ever see
Pace can be handy but it can also be over rated. It’s not how fast the ball travels but where you put it and how often you can put it there.
A minor point is that he never lost the ability to send a fast one down, so 140+ was an option in the toolkit, even if it wasn't deployed much. Legend has it he even put a few bouncers past Joel Garner...
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