Americas cup
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@Kiwiwomble said in Americas cup:
@LatsToTheMax im not too worried about the in or out of the water personally, the foiling cats were pretty amazing where they were working had and struggling to get them out of the water and then it was game on, and was a huge thing when they had the first 100% dry race, you could still see them sailing
The AC75 is definitely very cool but what I hear and see is that there is a big disconnect in the sailing and sailing interested communities. The AC has always been a technology and design race but it came with traditional elements of sailing a boat such as sail hoists etc.
What made the cats cool were the displacement values. They weigh close to 3x less than the AC75 which allows them to fly in less breeze. -
@LatsToTheMax said in Americas cup:
@booboo said in Americas cup:
Who was/is the commentator?
Sounds like Stephen McIvor. Is it?
McIvor is cringe personified. I really enjoyed Ken Read, young man in an older man's body. Essentially the Murray Mexted of sailing.
Yeah, I really liked his commentary too.
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As seen by the naked eye over the first 4 races.
ETNZ lose less speed in tacks and are quicker out of tacks which is where they are winning races.
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@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
As seen by the naked eye over the first 4 races.
ETNZ lose less speed in tacks and are quicker out of tacks which is where they are winning races.
I think sail mgmt has a lot to do with it, from memory we have ours set up differently to the other boats.
If Ineos was able to match ETNZ here then we have a boat race.
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I've watched all 4 races and at this point in time, it's troubling viewing for Ineos Brittania.
Race 1 was just a plain old trouncing, we really had it together and just went for it. We looked incredibly well drilled and genuinely just a bit faster than Ineos. The weird thing was that we seemed to have a much better read of the conditions which was not what I was expecting given the significantly less experience racing on the course than the challenger.
Race 2 had a much closer first few legs but then we found some wind in places and looked to take advantage of it. It really does seem as though we spend those first couple of legs looking at the conditions then using where its' best to find better boat speed over the rest of the race.
Race 3, after the penalty, it was just a matter of covering off Ineos the entire race.
Race 4 was a repeat of race 2. This is where I think it's a bit troubling for Ineos as it doesn't look like they've learned anything from the first 3 races. Either that, or we are simply a faster boat. Neither of those things bring any encouragement for the challenger.
Rest day today, which I'm sure Ineos will use to really analyse things and see where they are going wrong. It's far from over though, as we aren't that superior and the way these boats are, I'm sure the right tweaks can make a huge amount of difference.
Not sure what peoples problems are with McIvor - his question was a bit daft, but Ainslie misheard it which caused his reaction. There was a bit of banter about it at the start of the interviews post race 4 which Ainslie was grinning about. Overall I think the commentary has been good, it's not Montgomery, but it's added to the viewing and not been over the top. They do talk about the crowds a lot, but I'm unconvinced that they are that big. There are certainly less boats on the water, but the location has a huge advantage over Auckland in that you can see the races from the shore.
Have to miss the next 2 days, although I might see if I can find it on my phone to watch. Have really enjoyed it.
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@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
As seen by the naked eye over the first 4 races.
ETNZ lose less speed in tacks and are quicker out of tacks which is where they are winning races.
I think sail mgmt has a lot to do with it, from memory we have ours set up differently to the other boats.
If Ineos was able to match ETNZ here then we have a boat race.
Yeah I would also point out that in Race 4 ETNZ continued to give up extending their lead to cover INEOS. There were times they were just carving up meters.
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the kiwis definitely look smoother
whether by design or sailing skills dunno
guess thats for the brits to figure out; they either got to make a tweak to their boat or sail better
ainslie is a great sailer, cant imagine he'd put up with any lackness in his crew there; so must be design
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@LatsToTheMax said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
As seen by the naked eye over the first 4 races.
ETNZ lose less speed in tacks and are quicker out of tacks which is where they are winning races.
I think sail mgmt has a lot to do with it, from memory we have ours set up differently to the other boats.
If Ineos was able to match ETNZ here then we have a boat race.
Yeah I would also point out that in Race 4 ETNZ continued to give up extending their lead to cover INEOS. There were times they were just carving up meters.
It seems a feature of this class that when teams are in front they generally keep extending to big wins.
Perhaps it is a narrow course making it easier to provide wing wash or just the trailing boat having to go and find some wind and split the course which is not optimal. 100mtrs gains can be had in a few seconds in these boats.
The speed difference in upwind tacks is pretty big and if Ineos were able to address this, they would have done it by now.
Perhaps ETNZ modifications while waiting for the match has surprised them in this area?
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@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
@LatsToTheMax said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
As seen by the naked eye over the first 4 races.
ETNZ lose less speed in tacks and are quicker out of tacks which is where they are winning races.
I think sail mgmt has a lot to do with it, from memory we have ours set up differently to the other boats.
If Ineos was able to match ETNZ here then we have a boat race.
Yeah I would also point out that in Race 4 ETNZ continued to give up extending their lead to cover INEOS. There were times they were just carving up meters.
It seems a feature of this class that when teams are in front they generally keep extending to big wins.
Perhaps it is a narrow course making it easier to provide wing wash or just the trailing boat having to go and find some wind and split the course which is not optimal. 100mtrs gains can be had in a few seconds in these boats.
The speed difference in upwind tacks is pretty big and if Ineos were able to address this, they would have done it by now.
Perhaps ETNZ modifications while waiting for the match has surprised them in this area?
Burling did allude to not showing their hand in the pre cup races they sailed in. Keeping their powder dry.
At this point I think it’s pretty much over. The twin main sheet arrangement for individual control over the mainsail skins is genius. -
@W32 said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
@LatsToTheMax said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
As seen by the naked eye over the first 4 races.
ETNZ lose less speed in tacks and are quicker out of tacks which is where they are winning races.
I think sail mgmt has a lot to do with it, from memory we have ours set up differently to the other boats.
If Ineos was able to match ETNZ here then we have a boat race.
Yeah I would also point out that in Race 4 ETNZ continued to give up extending their lead to cover INEOS. There were times they were just carving up meters.
It seems a feature of this class that when teams are in front they generally keep extending to big wins.
Perhaps it is a narrow course making it easier to provide wing wash or just the trailing boat having to go and find some wind and split the course which is not optimal. 100mtrs gains can be had in a few seconds in these boats.
The speed difference in upwind tacks is pretty big and if Ineos were able to address this, they would have done it by now.
Perhaps ETNZ modifications while waiting for the match has surprised them in this area?
Burling did allude to not showing their hand in the pre cup races they sailed in. Keeping their powder dry.
At this point I think it’s pretty much over. The twin main sheet arrangement for individual control over the mainsail skins is genius.I think the 2013 loss has had a major effect on how they approach regatta’s and the constant need for improvement up till the final race.
In 2013, they showed their hand too quickly (I remember one commentator saying if they just kept foiling under wraps for another month of testing - no one would have got close) and in the end were out developed by a desperate team that managed to find a bit more performance where ETNZ plateaued.
So I can see merit in what you mention about keeping powder dry and also planning new things for later in the development cycle when they have data from race conditions.
ETNZ have not been put under pressure in the finals and have been sailing pretty serenely. I am sure there is more speed to be found if they were under more pressure and needed to find a bit more from somewhere
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Have watched all 4 races too and finally for the first part of race 4 we got a proper race but the margins are so fine in these races that it doesn't take much to get some distance between the boats and once that happens, the risk of error or a penalty being incurred drops dramatically and its pretty much all over for the trailing boat. This then doesn't make it great as a spectacle unfortunately.
The margin in time difference might be low but it looks like a long way on the water. Its a bit like two F1 cars racing on an oval track. A 10second difference between the two would look a bit silly. We've got something pretty similar to that in the LV and AC. IMHO something needs to change in this regard to make it a bit more appealing.
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@JK said in Americas cup:
IMHO something needs to change in this regard to make it a bit more appealing.
I can't see this going back into displacement hulls from foiling. But foiling racing is not close quarters ... so as you say, how the hell do yo umake it more than a procession? Courses get large, time on teh water drops, but damn they really shift. It's just a long long way from traditional yacht racing - and probably struggles to connect with a lot of the sailing public!
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@DaGrubster Good watch. I was contemplating posting it.
The NZ sail technology is pretty neat.
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One thing which seems apparent is that there is often a significant wind pressure difference on the two sides. In race 4, Ineos had control of the favoured side, but chose not to tack to keep TNZ on other side.
Whereas Burling, when TNZ was in front, was ruthless in tacking to shut GB out. -
@pakman said in Americas cup:
One thing which seems apparent is that there is often a significant wind pressure difference on the two sides. In race 4, Ineos had control of the favoured side, but chose not to tack to keep TNZ on other side.
Whereas Burling, when TNZ was in front, was ruthless in tacking to shut GB out.Yes, we have seen instances where each side has been stronger and good gains can be made if the lead boat doesn’t cover.
One thing about the narrow courses means it is pretty hard to keep owning one side of the course as you will have to do too many manoeuvre’s which eventually will negate the benefit of being in better wind pressure.
For ETNZ, tacking constantly against Ineos to cover actually helps them extend any lead as their are faster and smoother in their tacks. BA must feel pretty helpless in those situations because the course isn’t wide enough to really get out of phase and find wind shifts that can propel them into a lead….but if he keeps tacking to shake the ETNZ cover he continually loses ground or is easily covered.
What this series needs is some Ineos wins. It would be really interesting to see them race in the upper wind range (2-23knts I believe) to see if Ineos is faster. They looked very good in that wind range against LR and did a similar job on them that ETNZ is doing to Ineos now.
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@sparky said in Americas cup:
@canefan said in Americas cup:
I always liked Peter Montgomery and Peter Lester. PJ was the Murray Walker of AC
This, from Peter Montgomery, was a golden piece of sports commentary.
PJ was a neighbour for a number of years. Top fella. Always would give a hearty "Greetings!" from across the street
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@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
@LatsToTheMax said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
@DaGrubster said in Americas cup:
As seen by the naked eye over the first 4 races.
ETNZ lose less speed in tacks and are quicker out of tacks which is where they are winning races.
I think sail mgmt has a lot to do with it, from memory we have ours set up differently to the other boats.
If Ineos was able to match ETNZ here then we have a boat race.
Yeah I would also point out that in Race 4 ETNZ continued to give up extending their lead to cover INEOS. There were times they were just carving up meters.
It seems a feature of this class that when teams are in front they generally keep extending to big wins.
Perhaps it is a narrow course making it easier to provide wing wash or just the trailing boat having to go and find some wind and split the course which is not optimal. 100mtrs gains can be had in a few seconds in these boats.
The speed difference in upwind tacks is pretty big and if Ineos were able to address this, they would have done it by now.
Perhaps ETNZ modifications while waiting for the match has surprised them in this area?
ETNZ is the one team that has been able to keep it close when they're the boat behind.
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@nzzp said in Americas cup:
@JK said in Americas cup:
IMHO something needs to change in this regard to make it a bit more appealing.
I can't see this going back into displacement hulls from foiling. But foiling racing is not close quarters ... so as you say, how the hell do yo umake it more than a procession? Courses get large, time on teh water drops, but damn they really shift. It's just a long long way from traditional yacht racing - and probably struggles to connect with a lot of the sailing public!
I can. I can see large, light displacement, box rule, 90 footers with a huge sail plan.
