NZR review
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@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Kiwiwomble said in NZR review:
and to make sure its being run by professionals
Competent or renumerated?
i think the reality is both, i dont think running a union is a part time job and we cant expect the right people to do it for free
Then you've still removed 80-90% of your costs.
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Until NZR decide what is the right structure to move forward with, I think the unions will continue to try exhaust many avenues. While I dont think the existing NPC product is viable in its current capacity it is essentially still a better local tribal way of connecting players with communities and is a relatively good foundational model for players to progress.
Like most good foundations you don't ultimately see profit from here, that comes from the products that successfully leverage this foundation. In fact a percentage of that success should be attributed to your foundational model.
However, does this become amateur? Can you create a bimodal model where some costs/services can be centralized while others stay local? Should super rugby have more teams?, should the SR season be longer regardless like other pro comps? I think they are very good questions but are all linked to NZR getting their future structure right. There should be a way to remove some structural cost, but it is important to try and keep what is working well, while looking to continually improve what isn't.
NZR need to move on this relatively quickly (with some sort of feedback model) otherwise unions will just continue to destabilize everything.
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It's here.
The basic line here is a vote for option A, a (slightly watered-down ?) option based on the review's recommendations. If the votes fail, there is a watered-down option B "...alternative governance proposal which we believe still meets the underlying principles of the governance review."
Ooooh I wonder what will happen
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@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean Good on them.Take away provincial unions, club rugby and NZRFU have nothing. Not sure what NZRPA’s problem is? The austerity mantra of cutting everything and selling assets to the private sector for short term game is driven by flawed neoclassical economic theory. It starts at central government but is insidious pervading every aspect of our lives for the worse.
I'm not sold that continuing to spend money on something that loses money is good for long term security.
It’s like running a business where someone else builds the roads and trains your people. Just artificial boundaries, externalising the “other” costs and telling yourself you make all the money.
But the NPC is no longer the provider. Schools -> Academy -> Super Rugby -> All Blacks is how it works now. The NPC is a relic of a bygone era and we need to recognise that and adapt accordingly.
I don't really agree with that mate, I think NPC is great stepping stone. I just looking at Grndley from my club here in Hawera, who has gone to Blues and Jacomb to the Blues after great NPC stuff. Last year we saw Rona do same. I think it's a thing we have that Aus really need, you can only do so much at academy level, but you need NPC as a finishing school for most players.
Mind you in saying that I NPC's biggest fan anyway, absolutely love it! -
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean Good on them.Take away provincial unions, club rugby and NZRFU have nothing. Not sure what NZRPA’s problem is? The austerity mantra of cutting everything and selling assets to the private sector for short term game is driven by flawed neoclassical economic theory. It starts at central government but is insidious pervading every aspect of our lives for the worse.
I'm not sold that continuing to spend money on something that loses money is good for long term security.
It’s like running a business where someone else builds the roads and trains your people. Just artificial boundaries, externalising the “other” costs and telling yourself you make all the money.
But the NPC is no longer the provider. Schools -> Academy -> Super Rugby -> All Blacks is how it works now. The NPC is a relic of a bygone era and we need to recognise that and adapt accordingly.
I don't really agree with that mate, I think NPC is great stepping stone. I just looking at Grndley from my club here in Hawera, who has gone to Blues and Jacomb to the Blues after great NPC stuff. Last year we saw Rona do same. I think it's a thing we have that Aus really need, you can only do so much at academy level, but you need NPC as a finishing school for most players.
You just admitted that most SR players don't come from the NPC.
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@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean Good on them.Take away provincial unions, club rugby and NZRFU have nothing. Not sure what NZRPA’s problem is? The austerity mantra of cutting everything and selling assets to the private sector for short term game is driven by flawed neoclassical economic theory. It starts at central government but is insidious pervading every aspect of our lives for the worse.
I'm not sold that continuing to spend money on something that loses money is good for long term security.
It’s like running a business where someone else builds the roads and trains your people. Just artificial boundaries, externalising the “other” costs and telling yourself you make all the money.
But the NPC is no longer the provider. Schools -> Academy -> Super Rugby -> All Blacks is how it works now. The NPC is a relic of a bygone era and we need to recognise that and adapt accordingly.
I don't really agree with that mate, I think NPC is great stepping stone. I just looking at Grndley from my club here in Hawera, who has gone to Blues and Jacomb to the Blues after great NPC stuff. Last year we saw Rona do same. I think it's a thing we have that Aus really need, you can only do so much at academy level, but you need NPC as a finishing school for most players.
You just admitted that most SR players don't come from the NPC.
Did I? Grindley from my club is a Taranaki player, as is Jacomb and Rona. Not sure if you realise that Taranaki is a NPC team. When I sau Grindley was from my club, but he plays for TaranaKi!
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean Good on them.Take away provincial unions, club rugby and NZRFU have nothing. Not sure what NZRPA’s problem is? The austerity mantra of cutting everything and selling assets to the private sector for short term game is driven by flawed neoclassical economic theory. It starts at central government but is insidious pervading every aspect of our lives for the worse.
I'm not sold that continuing to spend money on something that loses money is good for long term security.
It’s like running a business where someone else builds the roads and trains your people. Just artificial boundaries, externalising the “other” costs and telling yourself you make all the money.
But the NPC is no longer the provider. Schools -> Academy -> Super Rugby -> All Blacks is how it works now. The NPC is a relic of a bygone era and we need to recognise that and adapt accordingly.
I don't really agree with that mate, I think NPC is great stepping stone. I just looking at Grndley from my club here in Hawera, who has gone to Blues and Jacomb to the Blues after great NPC stuff. Last year we saw Rona do same. I think it's a thing we have that Aus really need, you can only do so much at academy level, but you need NPC as a finishing school for most players.
You just admitted that most SR players don't come from the NPC.
Did I? Grindley from my club is a Taranaki player, as is Jacomb and Rona. Not sure if you realise that Taranaki is a NPC team. When I sau Grindley was from my club, but he plays for TaranaKi!
Meihana is a Taranaki native who attended school in Auckland at King's College in Ōtāhuhu. He has been part of the Blues development programme, representing the club in both Under-18 and Under-20 teams.So, it's not that he has has gone to Blues after success with your guys - he was with the Blues and comes back to play NPC. In other words, he is following the pathways outlined by @antipodean
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean Good on them.Take away provincial unions, club rugby and NZRFU have nothing. Not sure what NZRPA’s problem is? The austerity mantra of cutting everything and selling assets to the private sector for short term game is driven by flawed neoclassical economic theory. It starts at central government but is insidious pervading every aspect of our lives for the worse.
I'm not sold that continuing to spend money on something that loses money is good for long term security.
It’s like running a business where someone else builds the roads and trains your people. Just artificial boundaries, externalising the “other” costs and telling yourself you make all the money.
But the NPC is no longer the provider. Schools -> Academy -> Super Rugby -> All Blacks is how it works now. The NPC is a relic of a bygone era and we need to recognise that and adapt accordingly.
I don't really agree with that mate, I think NPC is great stepping stone. I just looking at Grndley from my club here in Hawera, who has gone to Blues and Jacomb to the Blues after great NPC stuff. Last year we saw Rona do same. I think it's a thing we have that Aus really need, you can only do so much at academy level, but you need NPC as a finishing school for most players.
You just admitted that most SR players don't come from the NPC.
Did I? Grindley from my club is a Taranaki player, as is Jacomb and Rona. Not sure if you realise that Taranaki is a NPC team. When I sau Grindley was from my club, but he plays for TaranaKi!
He went on to board at Sacred Heart College, playing alongside current Canterbury and Crusaders outside back Chay Fihaki after cracking the first XV his final two years It was while he was playing an under-18s match for Auckland against Taranaki that he caught the attention of the latter’s academy manager. -
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean Good on them.Take away provincial unions, club rugby and NZRFU have nothing. Not sure what NZRPA’s problem is? The austerity mantra of cutting everything and selling assets to the private sector for short term game is driven by flawed neoclassical economic theory. It starts at central government but is insidious pervading every aspect of our lives for the worse.
I'm not sold that continuing to spend money on something that loses money is good for long term security.
It’s like running a business where someone else builds the roads and trains your people. Just artificial boundaries, externalising the “other” costs and telling yourself you make all the money.
But the NPC is no longer the provider. Schools -> Academy -> Super Rugby -> All Blacks is how it works now. The NPC is a relic of a bygone era and we need to recognise that and adapt accordingly.
I don't really agree with that mate, I think NPC is great stepping stone. I just looking at Grndley from my club here in Hawera, who has gone to Blues and Jacomb to the Blues after great NPC stuff. Last year we saw Rona do same. I think it's a thing we have that Aus really need, you can only do so much at academy level, but you need NPC as a finishing school for most players.
You just admitted that most SR players don't come from the NPC.
Worse than that, they are recruiting from the Blues.
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Rona seems the best advertisement for the NPC > Super argument with 'Concreter can put down the tools' articles etc, however, he went to New Plymouth Boys’ High School, and played for the Chiefs U18 team and NZ Maori U18 team, before getting a contract with the Taranaki academy.....
@Dan54 This article admits that your NPC team is recruiting from the HS > Super system as discussed here a while ago.
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@gt12 said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean Good on them.Take away provincial unions, club rugby and NZRFU have nothing. Not sure what NZRPA’s problem is? The austerity mantra of cutting everything and selling assets to the private sector for short term game is driven by flawed neoclassical economic theory. It starts at central government but is insidious pervading every aspect of our lives for the worse.
I'm not sold that continuing to spend money on something that loses money is good for long term security.
It’s like running a business where someone else builds the roads and trains your people. Just artificial boundaries, externalising the “other” costs and telling yourself you make all the money.
But the NPC is no longer the provider. Schools -> Academy -> Super Rugby -> All Blacks is how it works now. The NPC is a relic of a bygone era and we need to recognise that and adapt accordingly.
I don't really agree with that mate, I think NPC is great stepping stone. I just looking at Grndley from my club here in Hawera, who has gone to Blues and Jacomb to the Blues after great NPC stuff. Last year we saw Rona do same. I think it's a thing we have that Aus really need, you can only do so much at academy level, but you need NPC as a finishing school for most players.
You just admitted that most SR players don't come from the NPC.
Did I? Grindley from my club is a Taranaki player, as is Jacomb and Rona. Not sure if you realise that Taranaki is a NPC team. When I sau Grindley was from my club, but he plays for TaranaKi!
Meihana is a Taranaki native who attended school in Auckland at King's College in Ōtāhuhu. He has been part of the Blues development programme, representing the club in both Under-18 and Under-20 teams.So, it's not that he has has gone to Blues after success with your guys - he was with the Blues and comes back to play NPC. In other words, he is following the pathways outlined by @antipodean
Exactly, school, academy and NPC. I not suggesting academies are not part of development , just he was saying NPC isn't part of it and it's a huge part of preparing super players. In fact I can't think of any players that followed just the pathway he suggested, schools-academy-super etc, it should and is schools ,academies (usuually), NPC and then super.
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean Good on them.Take away provincial unions, club rugby and NZRFU have nothing. Not sure what NZRPA’s problem is? The austerity mantra of cutting everything and selling assets to the private sector for short term game is driven by flawed neoclassical economic theory. It starts at central government but is insidious pervading every aspect of our lives for the worse.
I'm not sold that continuing to spend money on something that loses money is good for long term security.
It’s like running a business where someone else builds the roads and trains your people. Just artificial boundaries, externalising the “other” costs and telling yourself you make all the money.
But the NPC is no longer the provider. Schools -> Academy -> Super Rugby -> All Blacks is how it works now. The NPC is a relic of a bygone era and we need to recognise that and adapt accordingly.
I don't really agree with that mate, I think NPC is great stepping stone. I just looking at Grndley from my club here in Hawera, who has gone to Blues and Jacomb to the Blues after great NPC stuff. Last year we saw Rona do same. I think it's a thing we have that Aus really need, you can only do so much at academy level, but you need NPC as a finishing school for most players.
You just admitted that most SR players don't come from the NPC.
Did I? Grindley from my club is a Taranaki player, as is Jacomb and Rona. Not sure if you realise that Taranaki is a NPC team. When I sau Grindley was from my club, but he plays for TaranaKi!
Meihana is a Taranaki native who attended school in Auckland at King's College in Ōtāhuhu. He has been part of the Blues development programme, representing the club in both Under-18 and Under-20 teams.So, it's not that he has has gone to Blues after success with your guys - he was with the Blues and comes back to play NPC. In other words, he is following the pathways outlined by @antipodean
Exactly, school, academy and NPC. I not suggesting academies are not part of development , just he was saying NPC isn't part of it and it's a huge part of preparing super players. In fact I can't think of any players that followed just the pathway he suggested, schools-academy-super etc, it should and is schools ,academies (usuually), NPC and then super.
I like the goal post moving.
If the NPC doesn't identify players, it is already nothing more than a development competition for Super sides.
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In theory, school rugby players sign with a PU academy, not a SR academy, so the identification is by the PU. I'm sure they work closely together.
Using Grindlay as an example, he played for the Blues U18s while at King's because he was signed with Auckland. He had a 1st XV teammate (Aidan Morgan) who later played for the Hurricanes U20s because he had signed with Wellington.
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@gt12 said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@gt12 said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@kev said in NZR review:
@antipodean Good on them.Take away provincial unions, club rugby and NZRFU have nothing. Not sure what NZRPA’s problem is? The austerity mantra of cutting everything and selling assets to the private sector for short term game is driven by flawed neoclassical economic theory. It starts at central government but is insidious pervading every aspect of our lives for the worse.
I'm not sold that continuing to spend money on something that loses money is good for long term security.
It’s like running a business where someone else builds the roads and trains your people. Just artificial boundaries, externalising the “other” costs and telling yourself you make all the money.
But the NPC is no longer the provider. Schools -> Academy -> Super Rugby -> All Blacks is how it works now. The NPC is a relic of a bygone era and we need to recognise that and adapt accordingly.
I don't really agree with that mate, I think NPC is great stepping stone. I just looking at Grndley from my club here in Hawera, who has gone to Blues and Jacomb to the Blues after great NPC stuff. Last year we saw Rona do same. I think it's a thing we have that Aus really need, you can only do so much at academy level, but you need NPC as a finishing school for most players.
You just admitted that most SR players don't come from the NPC.
Did I? Grindley from my club is a Taranaki player, as is Jacomb and Rona. Not sure if you realise that Taranaki is a NPC team. When I sau Grindley was from my club, but he plays for TaranaKi!
Meihana is a Taranaki native who attended school in Auckland at King's College in Ōtāhuhu. He has been part of the Blues development programme, representing the club in both Under-18 and Under-20 teams.So, it's not that he has has gone to Blues after success with your guys - he was with the Blues and comes back to play NPC. In other words, he is following the pathways outlined by @antipodean
Exactly, school, academy and NPC. I not suggesting academies are not part of development , just he was saying NPC isn't part of it and it's a huge part of preparing super players. In fact I can't think of any players that followed just the pathway he suggested, schools-academy-super etc, it should and is schools ,academies (usuually), NPC and then super.
I like the goal post moving.
If the NPC doesn't identify players, it is already nothing more than a development competition for Super sides.
Well it probably is, same as schools are and clubs are development pathways to NPC etc etc. Mate you can knock NPC all you want, it's probably one of of big differences we have to Aus etc, another stepping stone. But going by what you say academies/development teams are no good because the players are often identified at shoolboy level . But NPC still does identify players, we see like of Blackadder etc that never really played at school, Rona fron the Naki, jokers who came through club/npc systems. Mind you I love NPC and will defend it and see the importance of it until I finish watching rugby. It's ok that some of you don't see it's place in NZ rugby landscape, just I believe I do, and will keep following it.
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@gt12 most players nowadays are identified through school, then many signed to super franchises one way or another, plenty before they are ready.
Plenty of players get signed to Super dev sides that don't make the step up, similarly these talented school kids don't always make the step up.
NPC is an important peice of the puzzle, bridging that gap from schools to super, the dev sides in the middle don't give them all they need to develop thier game.
Sure the NPC isnt what it was and never will be, but doesnt take away from its role in developing and honing talent.
How often do Aussies lament thier lack of a comp like it, SA have the CC, if we didn't have it, the bleeding of the NZ game would increase IMO.
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I'm not against the NPC per se, I'm against NZR running 19 professional teams, with huge overlaps of duties across two professional competitions. I enjoyed the shit out of the competition last year, but it is a blip. No one watches it, hardly anyone goes to the games. It's not worth anything as a product.
I don't think it is sustainable.
I understand that some people love the competition, but I wonder why they wouldn't continue to love it if it were amateur players representing their clubs.
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@gt12 said in NZR review:
I understand that some people love the competition, but I wonder why they wouldn't continue to love it if it were amateur players representing their clubs.
Semantics, but when you say clubs I assume you are talking provinces, that most are largely amateur already (although some actual clubs are semi pro too) not to mention I get out most weekends and watch actual.club rugby too.
And who says people won't love it equally either way, I am not sure that is what this is really about, it is more if these provincial sides would/could remain in existence if there is no viable reason for them if not for the NPC in one form or another, the whole sustainability argument goes down another level.
Look I'm also pretty realistic and know something has to change, and when most of these conversations come up, my team is one of the first on the block, which is fair enough when you look at results in the last 20 years or so.
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Not sure if the inevitable shit fight that this thread will turn into will be worth it (I'll be spending more time on the Grumpy Old Man thread than the Happiness one after this I think), but here goes anyway.
Most Super players play NPC, it really doesn't matter in which order. It's a similar negative comment like the argument I see sometimes of ABs not playing Super. In any given weekend the majority of ABs are playing.
@gt12 said in NZR review:
I understand that some people love the competition, but I wonder why they wouldn't continue to love it if it were amateur players representing their clubs.
If it's amateur it's not going to be televised then where is the avenues for people to watch it?
On the point on nobody watching, I daresay the NPC would have the second most viewers of any sports comp on Sky, after Super.
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@Nepia said in NZR review:
Not sure if the inevitable shit fight that this thread will turn into will be worth it (I'll be spending more time on the Grumpy Old Man thread than the Happiness one after this I think), but here goes anyway.
Most Super players play NPC, it really doesn't matter in which order. It's a similar negative comment like the argument I see sometimes of ABs not playing Super. In any given weekend the majority of ABs are playing.
I don't consider changes to the NPC as being in isolation. SR needs to change as well, preferably to my admittedly genius model.
@gt12 said in NZR review:
I understand that some people love the competition, but I wonder why they wouldn't continue to love it if it were amateur players representing their clubs.
If it's amateur it's not going to be televised then where is the avenues for people to watch it?
At the ground..?
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@antipodean Like for the admittedly genius model comment. Now I guess I'll have to go back and read it.
@antipodean said in NZR review:
At the ground..?
How does that replace the NPC for a viewer of rugby? If I'm home in winter I'll often go watch a club match or a Hastings Boys match, but that doesn't replace watching local players in the NPC.
Unions to vote on 'most radical governance change' in rugby's history
Meihana Grindlay Player Profile — Blues Rugby
