European Politics
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@junior said in European Politics:
@Dodge said in European Politics:
Immigration is definitely causing issues in the public psyche - I’m not entirely sure what the solution is
Yes, but this is such a vague, wide-ranging term that it is entirely unclear what it is about "immigration" that causes people concern and what parts of its people want to be stopped.
For example, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are both immigrants to the UK. I am now and have been previously an immigrant to two non-UK countries. I don't think anyone in the UK or Ireland would really have an issue with "people like us" immigrating to their countries.
On the other hand, my wife and her family were immigrants (stateless refugees in fact) to the UK from just the sort of place where people would likely say "absolutely not" to anyone wanting to come in now. They are all doctors and lawyers etc and are so are all their immigrant friends from the same place. They are collectively some of the most successful people I've ever met in my life and are a real credit to themselves, where they come from and all to the UK who took them in and where they were able to achieve those things - and they have clearly contributed to UK society in that regard.
Now, I appreciated that me, my wife, her friends and family, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are not like every immigrant everywhere in the world - hell, we may even be the exceptions. While I have real sympathy for indigenous people everywhere - including in Europe - to want to have autonomy over their homelands, "immigration" to some extent is normal and necessary at every time and everywhere.
I guess the point is that using blanket terms like "immigration" is totally unhelpful - from politicians, media, pro- and anti-immigration types. It's like expressing concerns about "illness" or "disease", knowing that there are myriad types of illness and disease each presenting their own issues and solutions.
Agree completely, economically, immigration in a western country with less than replacement rate birth rate is a necessity. Japan is struggling with not having / allowing immigration for this reason.
IMO the problem starts to arise when the immigrant population that arrives a. Has an entirely different culture than the indigenous population and b. moves into one area and only socialises within that ‘homeland’ culture. That terrible word ‘integration’ has some merit.
It is also more obviously an issue when public services don’t keep up with the additional demand / fail for other reasons like budget cuts.
The fact is, if immigration is necessary then politicians should be honest about it. They should also be honest enough to realise that if you import people from Aus or NZ then culturally we’re pretty similar, if you do it from Pakistan you’re making it easier for populists to play on people’s fears and sense of grievance.
The economics and the politics do not always therefore line up and that’s where the challenge for the politicians arises.
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
@MajorRage said in European Politics:
@Dodge sorry where do we disagree?
I agree with all your points, although I’m convinced that immigration policies contributed more to it than you are. Yes, there will be yobs but I’ll put them lower than 90%.
Apologies, I may have misread your post - I thought you were suggesting that those comments should have made sympathetic mention of the supposed underlying motivation. I don’t think they should have done
Ok, I can see how you got that, but yes not my point.
It was more that they were very exclusionary which just adds fuel to the flames. I'm no expert on Irish politics, but I do know that the Irish are arguably the most proud & nationalistic nation on earth. As alluded to on other threads, doesn't matter how long you live in Ireland, if you aren't Irish, you are never quite accepted as one.
Given the above, basically telling Irish people they aren't doing Irish things / Irish behaviour seems a bit inflammatory to me.
Not sure if I'm making any sense.
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
@junior said in European Politics:
@Dodge said in European Politics:
Immigration is definitely causing issues in the public psyche - I’m not entirely sure what the solution is
Yes, but this is such a vague, wide-ranging term that it is entirely unclear what it is about "immigration" that causes people concern and what parts of its people want to be stopped.
For example, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are both immigrants to the UK. I am now and have been previously an immigrant to two non-UK countries. I don't think anyone in the UK or Ireland would really have an issue with "people like us" immigrating to their countries.
On the other hand, my wife and her family were immigrants (stateless refugees in fact) to the UK from just the sort of place where people would likely say "absolutely not" to anyone wanting to come in now. They are all doctors and lawyers etc and are so are all their immigrant friends from the same place. They are collectively some of the most successful people I've ever met in my life and are a real credit to themselves, where they come from and all to the UK who took them in and where they were able to achieve those things - and they have clearly contributed to UK society in that regard.
Now, I appreciated that me, my wife, her friends and family, @MajorRage and @Victor-Meldrew are not like every immigrant everywhere in the world - hell, we may even be the exceptions. While I have real sympathy for indigenous people everywhere - including in Europe - to want to have autonomy over their homelands, "immigration" to some extent is normal and necessary at every time and everywhere.
I guess the point is that using blanket terms like "immigration" is totally unhelpful - from politicians, media, pro- and anti-immigration types. It's like expressing concerns about "illness" or "disease", knowing that there are myriad types of illness and disease each presenting their own issues and solutions.
Agree completely, economically, immigration in a western country with less than replacement rate birth rate is a necessity. Japan is struggling with not having / allowing immigration for this reason.
IMO the problem starts to arise when the immigrant population that arrives a. Has an entirely different culture than the indigenous population and b. moves into one area and only socialises within that ‘homeland’ culture. That terrible word ‘integration’ has some merit.
It is also more obviously an issue when public services don’t keep up with the additional demand / fail for other reasons like budget cuts.
The fact is, if immigration is necessary then politicians should be honest about it. They should also be honest enough to realise that if you import people from Aus or NZ then culturally we’re pretty similar, if you do it from Pakistan you’re making it easier for populists to play on people’s fears and sense of grievance.
The economics and the politics do not always therefore line up and that’s where the challenge for the politicians arises.
Japan is struggling-ish true, but equally doesn't have a ridiculous housing bubble from constantly importing people without updating infrastructure, or a disgruntled population of working class voters who get pushed ever closer to the margins by governments that are prepared to import cheap labor to help companies stay profitable at the expense of a comfortable living for locals.
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Complex topic, and I’m way too drunk to approach it in any comprehensive way.
But fuck, it’s the Fern!
My take on the Australian experience is that it has absolutely been immigration for the sake of growth, to the benefit of nobody other than home owners.
There is such limited integration here in Sydney (the Chinese aside), it’s just created massively isolated communities, entire areas of single ethnic entities out west. Places like Lakemba, Punchbowl, you just wouldnt recognise them as “Australian “
And are they really?
At some point you have to ask why we continue down this road - eroding culture simply to prop up housing prices and the employment rate - does it still make sense?
Do the immigrants we take on add value to our society? Are they going to buy-in to what we believe in, or rally against it?
Some serious questions we need to answer
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
Pretty much agree with everything you wrote except this:
"They should also be honest enough to realise that if you import people from Aus or NZ then culturally we’re pretty similar, if you do it from Pakistan you’re making it easier for populists to play on people’s fears and sense of grievance."
Not too sure it's just about "populists" playing on people's fears. The grooming gangs scandal and cover-up was solely down to the establishment - councils, police, Home Office - putting sensitivity towards immigrants over enforcing criminal law
Trevor Philips makes the very good point that indigenous Brits need to try harder to understand what it's like to be an immigrant in the UK. Fair enough, but the flip side is immigrants also need to try harder to understand the indigenous population. It's a two-way street.
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I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
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@Dodge said in European Politics:
The fact is, if immigration is necessary then politicians should be honest about it. They should also be honest enough to realise that if you import people from Aus or NZ then culturally we’re pretty similar, if you do it from Pakistan you’re making it easier for populists to play on people’s fears and sense of grievance.
Importing economic refugees from culturally similar countries is hardly an issue, outside of the obvious concentration in certain areas. As a result the effect is magnified, but understandable given the circumstances. This in of itself tends to disappear as they melt into the wider community.
For the same reason culturally dissimilar people will do this but the appearance is magnified. Then you start to notice one of two outcomes:
- By the third generation they've adopted the dominant culture and vernacular. They have disparate groups of friends.
- They don't assimilate and feel no requirement to do so, having established their own community.
Australia is an excellent example. As at the last census (2021) 27.6 per cent of the population were born overseas. Almost half of the population had a parent born overseas (48.2 per cent). So if somewhere has made a reasonable fist of importing people, it's here.
Malcolm Fraser decided that during the Lebanese Civil War, it would be a "good thing" if the refugee policy of the time was relaxed under what was termed the "Lebanese Concession" to allow Maronite Christians the opportunity to leave. Instead 90% of Lebanese migrants were Muslim and fast forward two-three generations later, two-thirds of Australians charged with terrorism-related offences a few short years ago came from this cohort.
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Yep. the issues isn't simply immigration, it's integration.
There was a government report done here a few years ago which looked at integration and found it had gone backwards in the last decade or so - e.g. increasing numbers of second-generation immigrants marrying spouses from their country of their parents' origin.
It also cited cases of British-born Muslim teenagers going to University without ever having socialised with a non-Muslim.
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For all its racial discord, the US has it right with the citizenship process for new immigrants
Proud to be an American
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@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits. The majority of them lived and worked/slaved in conditions of poverty and squalor you couldn't even comprehend. They assimilated into society as best they could in the US, Canada, Australia etc and practically built these nations.
Today, Ireland is the most generous country in the world, per head of population, for donations to third world countries. It has taken in more refugees, per capita, than any other country in Europe in the last few years. These immigrants arrive, are given places to stay, warmth, electricity, water, food and the same social benefits that the Irish get without having contributed in any way. There is zero comparison to Irish immigrants and what's happening now in the EU and Ireland in particular. -
The problem isn't so much "immigration" as a whole but the type of immigration being done and the support services around it.
Immigration targeted to fill skill/labor gaps and which has the subsequent immigration support so they can get housed, find jobs integrate into society all good.
Refugees for the sake of "being nice" well nothing wrong with that either but that's more difficult as it's not like the refugees skills are addressing a shortage in the job market, hence finding employment is more difficult. Again unless there is support around them to house, feed, clothe, educate so they can speak the language, find jobs refuges will find it difficult in integrate into their new country.
Then there's literally forced migration, in which I include illegal immigration - where people who claim to be refuges turn up by boat or invade the border, this isn't great as it seeks to bypass or simply overwhelm the immigration system and that system needs to work in order for successful immigration/integration to take place.
Done poorly you end up with the worst of both worlds - you get an unvetted migrant population (who at best maybe earnestly seeking to improve them and their families lives and at worst murderers, criminal and rapists seeking to take their enterprise from one part of the world to another) that is angry and isolated from the general population. They can't speak the language, they can't get a job, they can't "fit in" with the general populace (who all appear to be doing better than why they are) they feel they are left to feed on the scraps of society, sticking to your own follows and unfortunately hate and crime aren't far behind.
Then you have a general population with an increased cost of living, increased rents/mortgages, increased problems making ends meet, increased issues finding a job while watching their government spending millions and millions of dollars on migrants who are "doing it tough so we should be nice". Well yes, that works for awhile until you start doing it tough yourself - then the question is asked "why can't you be nice to me, when I've lived here and paid taxes here all my life - don't I matter?"
Now for a government to take all of the above and say that anyone who complains about immigration is "far - right" without the same government taking some accountability for the mess they've created or seen to have some introspection into their policy's and shortcomings it only makes the situation worse.
Being arrogant and patronizing "don't criticize this government - you're just a racist" especially when social indicators are plunging into the toilet does nothing to fix a complex situation.
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@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits. The majority of them lived and worked/slaved in conditions of poverty and squalor you couldn't even comprehend. They assimilated into society as best they could in the US, Canada, Australia etc and practically built these nations.
Today, Ireland is the most generous country in the world, per head of population, for donations to third world countries. It has taken in more refugees, per capita, than any other country in Europe in the last few years. These immigrants arrive, are given places to stay, warmth, electricity, water, food and the same social benefits that the Irish get without having contributed in any way. There is zero comparison to Irish immigrants and what's happening now in the EU and Ireland in particular.Ireland - truly the Ethan Blackadder of countries.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in European Politics:
@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits. The majority of them lived and worked/slaved in conditions of poverty and squalor you couldn't even comprehend. They assimilated into society as best they could in the US, Canada, Australia etc and practically built these nations.
Today, Ireland is the most generous country in the world, per head of population, for donations to third world countries. It has taken in more refugees, per capita, than any other country in Europe in the last few years. These immigrants arrive, are given places to stay, warmth, electricity, water, food and the same social benefits that the Irish get without having contributed in any way. There is zero comparison to Irish immigrants and what's happening now in the EU and Ireland in particular.Ireland - truly the
EthanEdmund Blackadder of countries. -
@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits. The majority of them lived and worked/slaved in conditions of poverty and squalor you couldn't even comprehend. They assimilated into society as best they could in the US, Canada, Australia etc and practically built these nations.
You had me nodding right up until this last sentence.
Today, Ireland is the most generous country in the world, per head of population, for donations to third world countries. It has taken in more refugees, per capita, than any other country in Europe in the last few years. These immigrants arrive, are given places to stay, warmth, electricity, water, food and the same social benefits that the Irish get without having contributed in any way.
I can tell from your wording here that you are on the "correct" side to be on. You obviously think that that last sentence is just fantastic, where as the crux of this discussion is that some don't and are largely ignored and / or beaten down by the "correct" side. Debate is to how much of this is the leading cause of the disruptions seen.
As I said, I don't know enough about Irish politics to have a deep view here, but I do believe that this and the Netherlands vote are linked to the same issue, which cannot have the can continually kicked down the road.
There is zero comparison to Irish immigrants and what's happening now in the EU and Ireland in particular.
To be fair, I don' think there was any malice or ignorance in this comment. Standard one liner about hypocrisy(which there is) without meaning to take on all the context you point out (also correct).
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@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
The discussion really isn't about immigration, it's about integration, assimilation and the people affected by immigration and refugee numbers being ignored and/or denigrated. It's a mix causing social issues which we are seeing everywhere in Europe from Poland all the way thru The Netherland to Ireland.
Ignoring it and hoping it goes away won't solve the problem - nor will feeling collectively virtuous about how wonderful the number of immigrants a country hosts.
BTW, Ireland is actually ranked 8th in the OECD at $268 per capita pa between 2018-22 for foreign aid. In contrast, Denmark & Norway gave $471 & $810 respectively. link . Similarly, Ireland ranks 11th out of EU countries and takes in about half the refugees, per capita that Sweden, Germany and Austria do. link
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@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits.
It's a strange way to commit genocide by permitting hundreds of thousands to migrate to Liverpool, Bradford, Manchester, etc.
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@antipodean said in European Politics:
@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits.
It's a strange way to commit genocide by permitting hundreds of thousands to migrate to Liverpool, Bradford, Manchester, etc.
You may not be aware of just how delicate this subject is for many Irish. The only thing I can think if anywhere near this for you guys would be dismissing the sacrifices made at Gallipoli. Not quite the same thing but very close in terms of national emotion.
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@antipodean said in European Politics:
@The-Irishman said in European Politics:
@mariner4life said in European Politics:
I find the irony of the Irish of all people complaining about immigration to be pretty funny
I find this comment, quiet frankly, ignorant and uneducated. 10 million Irish have emigrated since the 1800's, mainly triggered by genocide committed by the brits.
It's a strange way to commit genocide by permitting hundreds of thousands to migrate to Liverpool, Bradford, Manchester, etc.
Also worth pointing out that they were not treated particularly well when they arrived here, 'No blacks, no dogs, no Irish' signs were up on pubs, lodgings and hotels in living memory.
Our history with the irish isn't sparkling, but Ireland is a miracle of western democracy development over the last 100 years and they are rightly proud of that. Unlike someone mentioned above, my experience of Ireland is welcoming, inclusive and excited about what the future holds, it feels very different to most other European countries in the last few years and makes what happened last week more of a surprise.
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Yep, I'm fully aware of the sensitivity as three of my grandparents were Irish, Only one emigrated for economic reasons - one married a non-Irish woman and the other, Patrick, joined the Army (and actually fought at Gallipoli). Both were effectively forced out of Ireland for their "non-Irish" choices and there were thousands of similar stories.
I've seen some of the books used from the late 1800's right up until the 1930' to "educate" Irish children about the "evil English". Pretty vile stuff way up there with the worst anti-Semitic propaganda of that era - whipped up, as ever, by the religious bigots. The reality of the mid-1800's is far more complex and nuanced than simplistically blaming the brits for genocide.
As Schama puts it, Ireland was Europe's last great Reformation struggle.