RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland
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@semper nothing to stop their home unions picking them? You sure about that? Very different to what I remember, but I didn’t take huge interest so I could well be wrong.
Get used to the tiresome. We dealt with the same crap, a lot from from Irish (and still do, see itv commentary or Samoa / Tonga games), yet I don’t remember us offering contracts to established players at professional level with zero allegiance to NZ.
Ireland gave / gives us colossal shit. And are now the worst of the lot. Great team, amazing …. But “Ireland” for me.
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@MajorRage said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@semper nothing to stop their home unions picking them? You sure about that? Very different to what I remember, but I didn’t take huge interest so I could well be wrong.
You are wrong.
If the All Blacks wanted to call up a player with the Irish provinces, there was nothing to stop them. The provinces wouldn't have tried to stop them and the players would hardly have said no. The issue is your own internal system of rules and essentially telling anyone who leaves the NZ system that they are thereafter dead to you.
Look at the case of Jean Kleyn was picked for the South African World Cup squad or Ben Healy for the Scottish one. Both playing with Irish provinces on standard Irish provincial contracts and choosing to play for other countries.
Get used to the tiresome. We dealt with the same crap, a lot from from Irish (and still do, see itv commentary or Samoa / Tonga games), yet I don’t remember us offering contracts to established players at professional level with zero allegiance to NZ.
As I understand it, there were three players in the RWC NZ squad qualifiying by way of residency as adults.
Shannon Frizzel who moved to NZ to play rugby after playing for Tongan at the U20 Rugby World Cup and Taukei'aho & Narawa who both came to New Zeland on rugby scholarships aged 17.
Not sure what allegiance they had to New Zealand before they arrived to play rugby was, but maybe it's more ethical to attract lots of teenagers over on rugby scholarships with the big dream rather than doing the same with adults.
Anyway, I'd get rid of the residency qualification in the morning if I had my way. Its open to abuse, obviously not in the case of NZ where what is done is ethical and fair, but by other nefarious countries like Ireland.
Ireland gave / gives us colossal shit. And are now the worst of the lot. Great team, amazing …. But “Ireland” for me.
Ireland gave you collasal shit. Yes, I imagine we did. And that hurt a lot, but hey, ye won stuff so I doubt ye cared.
I find this debate tiresome because nobody ever recognises their own sides failings. I don't like it, but what can I do? And I'll still cheer on Ireland. What annoys me is giving out about Ireland and pretending that residency rules aren't exploited by others. The only people with pure hands in this are the Argentinians, and only they can actually give other shit about residency rules abuse.
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The 3 residency players in the squad is probably the last of the bunch as IRFU have shifted to their IQ Rugby programme since 2017. In short, they want already Irish qualified players picked for the provinces.
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@semper said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
You are wrong.
If the All Blacks wanted to call up a player with the Irish provinces, there was nothing to stop them. The provinces wouldn't have tried to stop them and the players would hardly have said no.
Frankly, I don't believe this. Interviews with Aki when he left it was pretty open that he was leaving to qualify and play for Ireland. He wouldn't have held this point of view if he wasn't given the word in his ear about expectations.
The issue is your own internal system of rules and essentially telling anyone who leaves the NZ system that they are thereafter dead to you.
If we didn't have this system, we wouldn't have any players left in NZ. That is just the reality because the budgets available to other countries teams, more now France / Japan (than UK / Ireland), dwarf what is available to all bar the best players.
Look at the case of Jean Kleyn was picked for the South African World Cup squad or Ben Healy for the Scottish one. Both playing with Irish provinces on standard Irish provincial contracts and choosing to play for other countries.
Did the IRFU refer to these guys as their "project players"?
As I understand it, there were three players in the RWC NZ squad qualifiying by way of residency as adults.
Shannon Frizzel who moved to NZ to play rugby after playing for Tongan at the U20 Rugby World Cup and Taukei'aho & Narawa who both came to New Zeland on rugby scholarships aged 17.
Not sure what allegiance they had to New Zealand before they arrived to play rugby was, but maybe it's more ethical to attract lots of teenagers over on rugby scholarships with the big dream rather than doing the same with adults.
I'm not going to speak on behalf of them for their reasons - I know all of them have deep rooted family connections in NZ, not to mention coming from places with long political ties to NZ. If schools offer children from the island schools scholarships to come play for them, in my view it's a win for all. They don't have to go, and they don't have to agree to play to NZ. Alot of them do, with many only doing it to get their value up on the transfer market abroad. I don't blame them. Rightly or wrongly, I generally see Polynesian / NZ sport mixing similar to England / Ireland / Scotland / Wales. When the countries are so closely aligned, it's only natural.
I've been uncomfortable with a lot of the situations for people who play for NZ. The latest being Pita Gus. But again, I'm not going to speak for him.
Anyway, I'd get rid of the residency qualification in the morning if I had my way. Its open to abuse, obviously not in the case of NZ where what is done is ethical and fair, but by other nefarious countries like Ireland.
Fair enough if you wish to hold this point of view. As Derm says below, I do think Ireland is looking to phase the residency thing out of their rugby anyway.
Ireland gave you collasal shit. Yes, I imagine we did. And that hurt a lot, but hey, ye won stuff so I doubt ye cared.
We won lots because we had the best systems & people in place. It's that simple. Yet, you would rarely read that up here. IT was all about the islander poaching, that was pretty much so it. In truth, the truths spoke hurt a bit, as they had good points. However, it was the constant writing of NZ born Polynesians that actually hurt, and continues to hurt. The clear view was that only white people could play for NZ, and in a lot of places continues to be so.
Whilst anybody holding anything even remotely close to that sort of view in the British Isles is almost immediately cancelled / castrated / labelled bigoted.
I find this debate tiresome because nobody ever recognises their own sides failings. I don't like it, but what can I do? And I'll still cheer on Ireland. What annoys me is giving out about Ireland and pretending that residency rules aren't exploited by others. The only people with pure hands in this are the Argentinians, and only they can actually give other shit about residency rules abuse.
They're exploited by near everybody. But only those at the top take most of the flak. It was our turn for years, it's now the turn of the IRFU.
Comes with the territory. Will you care if you win the WC?
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@Derm-McCrum said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
The 3 residency players in the squad is probably the last of the bunch as IRFU have shifted to their IQ Rugby programme since 2017. In short, they want already Irish qualified players picked for the provinces.
Let’s be honest. The move from 3 to 5 years forced their hand.
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@semper said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@junior said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@chimoaus said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
It is very odd choice not to have a kicker behind a forward orientated game plan. It’s obvious to all these right games are won with the boot.
Which makes it a relatively easy fix - I would be feeling very motivated right now if I was in the Boks squad.
Really?
You squeeze the Irish lineout to the point of malfunction, you get plenty of territory, you avoid any back injuries so your 7-1 split works, you get your bomb squad on, and you slow down Irish ball massively.
You still lose.
And in doing so, butcher the confidence of your chosen out half.
South Africa are coached like a kids team, they have a coach who doesn't even trust them to choose whether to kick for the corner or posts and is Eddie Jones like in his need for attention with 'innovations'. The lack of a kicking option and the lack of a back up hooker was a choice not something imposed randomly or the result of injury.
They might turn it after this or they might implode. Sometimes when your too smart, you don't know where to put your feet.
Perhaps Boks didn't mind losing?
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@Billy-Tell said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@Derm-McCrum said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
The 3 residency players in the squad is probably the last of the bunch as IRFU have shifted to their IQ Rugby programme since 2017. In short, they want already Irish qualified players picked for the provinces.
Let’s be honest. The move from 3 to 5 years forced their hand.
In part yes. They announced IQ Rugby a couple of weeks after WR made their announcement but had been planning it for a number of months. The writing was on the wall anyway - there were too many duds and too many NIQ players filling up the squads within the provincial quotas. They're now at 94% Irish qualified, with only 10-11 players who are ineligible to play due to being capped elsewhere.
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@semper said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
If the All Blacks wanted to call up a player with the Irish provinces, there was nothing to stop them. The provinces wouldn't have tried to stop them and the players would hardly have said no.
For matches in window. There's no way they'd release for RC.
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@booboo said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@semper said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
If the All Blacks wanted to call up a player with the Irish provinces, there was nothing to stop them. The provinces wouldn't have tried to stop them and the players would hardly have said no.
For matches in window. There's no way they'd release for RC.
The RC is in a test window set by World Rugby. Aki's colleagues at Connacht have been released for any test matches when required. Equally, Snyman and de Allende at Munster for SA and Alaalatoa at Leinster for Samoa.
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@Derm-McCrum said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@booboo said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@semper said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
If the All Blacks wanted to call up a player with the Irish provinces, there was nothing to stop them. The provinces wouldn't have tried to stop them and the players would hardly have said no.
For matches in window. There's no way they'd release for RC.
The RC is in a test window set by World Rugby. Aki's colleagues at Connacht have been released for any test matches when required. Equally, Snyman and de Allende at Munster for SA and Alaalatoa at Leinster for Samoa.
Really? My apologies.
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@booboo said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@Derm-McCrum said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@booboo said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@semper said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
If the All Blacks wanted to call up a player with the Irish provinces, there was nothing to stop them. The provinces wouldn't have tried to stop them and the players would hardly have said no.
For matches in window. There's no way they'd release for RC.
The RC is in a test window set by World Rugby. Aki's colleagues at Connacht have been released for any test matches when required. Equally, Snyman and de Allende at Munster for SA and Alaalatoa at Leinster for Samoa.
Really? My apologies.
Yes, otherwise SA would have no players for the RC. The money making games outside the windows are different, also second bled is not in window.
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@Machpants said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@booboo said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@Derm-McCrum said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@booboo said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
@semper said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
If the All Blacks wanted to call up a player with the Irish provinces, there was nothing to stop them. The provinces wouldn't have tried to stop them and the players would hardly have said no.
For matches in window. There's no way they'd release for RC.
The RC is in a test window set by World Rugby. Aki's colleagues at Connacht have been released for any test matches when required. Equally, Snyman and de Allende at Munster for SA and Alaalatoa at Leinster for Samoa.
Really? My apologies.
Yes, otherwise SA would have no players for the RC. The money making games outside the windows are different, also second bled is not in window.
I'm not sure that is correct.
I thought there were July and Oct/Nov windows - but the RC matches fell outside those.
happy to be corrected; as usual I can't find anything about it on the World Rugby website or Google ... but I thought the formal windows excluded the RC
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RC is in the release window, just not Bled. Otherwise no one would release their SA players in the NH. Heck they even had Willie Le Roux flying back from OZ for the bye weekend prior to Covid, as the bye weekend doesn't count, then flying back to SA for the game afterwards
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@Machpants said in RWC Week 3: Springboks v Ireland:
RC is in the release window, just not Bled. Otherwise no one would release their SA players in the NH. Heck they even had Willie Le Roux flying back from OZ for the bye weekend prior to Covid, as the bye weekend doesn't count, then flying back to SA for the game afterwards
Regulations | World Rugby
Information about the game's laws and regulations, including the World Rugby Laws app
9.7(i) Global Release Periods
There are two Global Release Periods.
(a) The July window
(b) The November windowand then in the second part
(ii) Unless Council approves otherwise the Southern Hemisphere Release Period shall operate each year. It shall commence on the first weekend of August and continue for the next eight consecutive weekends.
(c) Rugby Championship Release Period
(ii) Unless Council approves otherwise the Rugby Championship Release Period shall operate each year for an eight week period. It shall ordinarily commence on or around the second weekend in August and shall conclude on or around the first weekend in October each yearSo you're spot on - they do have 6 weeks out of the 8 week period to take players.
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@KiwiMurph you know Foster won't do that. In fact, half the team will be on the plane home and he'll bring in Zahn Sullivan and 13 more wingers to cover the weak forward pack.
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Been thinking about this game a lot since it happened. It was great (my podcast should be up and running any day now and I assume will be popular with killer insights like that)
As for where it leaves the two sides, I think both take a lot from it. Ireland weren’t at their best but did enough to win, that breeds confidence which they, more than SA, needed. I think the line out is fixable, and think their forwards will benefit from the scrum match up.
South Africa were good, however without a goal kicker of note I can’t see how they win the whole thing. Pollard fit, in form is crucial to them IMO.
Overall, I think France, Ireland and SA are a country mile infront of the others. Ireland will struggle with how many big teams they have to play in a row, France have had a long break after their big game against NZ (the two run outs they’ve had since were more like training) and I think are my current favourites for the whole thing. Assuming Ireland get past Scotland, I think France will beat SA now.
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Farrell has been very clever in how he’s prepared the squad for the pressure of consecutive high calibre opponents. Before last summers tour to NZ it was he who requested the two midweek Māori games as a way to put more pressure on the players, and he then sent a very young development squad to South Africa mid season.
During the 6ns in the spring Ireland had to find ways to overcome major disruption during and between games. They lost two hookers during the Scottish game, and had Van der Flier throwing into the lineout for practically the whole second half and still pulled away from a good Scottish side, and were decimated by injuries for the Italy match.
Outside of having a far better squad of players the big difference in this side from previous Irish sides is their mental strength and their ability to adapt to adverse circumstances mid game. Winning 16 on the trot, and 28 from 30, takes huge confidence and resilience, something they demonstrated in spades at the weekend. None of this means they’ll win the RWC but it would indicate that you can’t count on Irelands previous flakiness when predicting how they will respond in future games in the tournament.
