Le Tour

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="599640" data-time="1469316856">
So a guy dominates the whole race without any real challenge, despite crashing twice. And still strong in week 3. Hmmmmmm</blockquote>
 
Not only that, final climb of the tour and pretty much his whole team are in the group fighting it out with the other main tour contenders.... 
Call me sceptical

hydro11

Froome is a great cyclist. He gained most of the time in the time trials and then won on a descent. He never really had to put in a blistering attack which destroyed his opponents on a climb. Froome would always be up there and no one had a bad day. Poels also seemed to neutralise most of the other attacks. Porte lost time due to misfortune, Quintana was out of form, Nibali rode the Giro, Contador crashed, Yates is young, Mollema was lucky to be up there and only gained time back in the breaks. Bardet is good but not elite. This wasn't like when Armstrong ripped shreds out of everyone. They raced around in France for three weeks and Froome won by four minutes. He was dominant but better cyclists have come before and will come again.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="599653" data-time="1469321499">
<div>
Not only that, final climb of the tour and pretty much his whole team are in the group fighting it out with the other main tour contenders.... 
Call me sceptical
</div>
</blockquote>
Team Sky just buys fantastic riders.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="599654" data-time="1469321585">
<div>
Froome is a great cyclist. He gained most of the time in the time trials and then won on a descent. He never really had to put in a blistering attack which destroyed his opponents on a climb. Froome would always be up there and no one had a bad day. Poels also seemed to neutralise most of the other attacks. Porte lost time due to misfortune, Quintana was out of form, Nibali rode the Giro, Contador crashed, Yates is young, Mollema was lucky to be up there and only gained time back in the breaks. Bardet is good but not elite. This wasn't like when Armstrong ripped shreds out of everyone. They raced around in France for three weeks and Froome won by four minutes. He was dominant but better cyclists have come before and will come again.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
He may be and, if so, it is a pity that he's always going to be under the cloud of what has gone before.
 
I don't really like that he's never looked in the slightest bit of trouble in the whole three weeks - maybe a tiny bit the other night when he crashed and had to ride the whole of the final climb on Thomas' bike. And, as above, I don't like that he can dominate both disciplines - TT and climbing. I can't recall anyone previous who was as good at both and didn't later turn out to have been doping. I guess it would be interesting to see some comparative stats on some of his times compared to what Armstrong put up.

mariner4life

Your team having 3 times the budget of nearly everyone else helps. 
It also buys you the best chemists

mariner4life

Regarding no one else having a go. A theory is tje peleton knows what's up, and knows there's no point, so aim for the minors.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="599664" data-time="1469323376">
<div>
He may be and, if so, it is a pity that he's always going to be under the cloud of what has gone before.
 
I don't really like that he's never looked in the slightest bit of trouble in the whole three weeks - maybe a tiny bit the other night when he crashed and had to ride the whole of the final climb on Thomas' bike. And, as above, I don't like that he can dominate both disciplines - TT and climbing. I can't recall anyone previous who was as good at both and didn't later turn out to have been doping. I guess it would be interesting to see some comparative stats on some of his times compared to what Armstrong put up.
</div>
</blockquote>
I think Merckx was good at both.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="599658" data-time="1469321966">
<div>
Team Sky just buys fantastic riders.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That's the biggest problem (ignoring Froome's superhuman abilities). The other teams simply aren't strong enough to put Team Sky under sufficient pressure so it becomes a procession.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="599664" data-time="1469323376">
<div>
He may be and, if so, it is a pity that he's always going to be under the cloud of what has gone before.
 
I don't really like that he's never looked in the slightest bit of trouble in the whole three weeks - maybe a tiny bit the other night when he crashed and had to ride the whole of the final climb on Thomas' bike. And, as above, I don't like that he can dominate both disciplines - TT and climbing. I can't recall anyone previous who was as good at both and didn't later turn out to have been doping. I guess it would be interesting to see some comparative stats on some of his times compared to what Armstrong put up.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Especially considering the quality of the field he beat in the time trial
 
Rohan Dennis (held the world hour record for 1month) Tony Martina and Fabiam Cancellara?
 
The course was technical, but these guys are TT Specialists

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="599670" data-time="1469323809">
<div>
I think Merckx was good at both.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Eddy was caught doping, though.
 
Apparently there's a very interesting book by Tino Tabak (google him) that talks a lot about doping in cycling in the 1970s. I haven't read it, but I've been meaning to get hold of a copy.


<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
Edit: â€œYou become a professional because you're a good bike rider, of course, but it's got nothing to do with pushing that bike. It becomes a business. If you're contracted to win, you've got to win. It doesn't matter how you do it. But if you get contracted to help, then listen mate, you just help. Don't you dare win!â€
Tino Tabak was one of New Zealand's brightest sporting stars when he set out to prove himself in that toughest of arenas, European road cycling. This tell-all account sets the scene for New Zealand cycle racing in the 1960s and lifts the lid on the world of professional cycling, race-fixing and performance-enhancing drugs of the late '60s early '70s.
</blockquote>
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.kennett.co.nz/product/tino-tabak/'>http://www.kennett.co.nz/product/tino-tabak/</a>

scribe

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="599923" data-time="1469404100">Especially considering the quality of the field he beat in the time trial 
 Rohan Dennis (held the world hour record for 1month) Tony Martina and Fabiam Cancellara? 
 The course was technical, but these guys are TT Specialists </blockquote>
 
So many other variables to consider. Froome is the Olympic bronze medalist so can TT a bit! The course was not a typical TT course. It suited a climber who could TT as well, that is why most of the top spots were taken by the GC guys. Most used road bikes and a fair few didn't even use clip on aero bars. The 'pure' TT guys like Martin and Dennis had basically ridden themselves into the ground at that point for their GC riders and were probably saving themselves for domestique duty in the remaining Alps stages. Kiriyenka who is the reigning TT world champion just ambled through knowing that he had a job to do for Froome in the coming days.

sparky

Amazing to think British riders with a British team have now won 4 out of the last 5 Tours de France. 
David Brailsford is one of the best coaches in world sport at the moment. I'd be very surprised indeed if Team Sky dope. Look at their huge budget, Froome's natural talent, the hard work of the team, their close relationship with the leading Sport Science departments at UK universities and Brailsford's philosophy of marginal gains if you want to find the reasons for their dominance.

antipodean

I'm well reminded of the arguments used to rebut the allegations surrounding US Postal's dominance.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="600005" data-time="1469411553">
<div>
Eddy was caught doping, though.
 
Apparently there's a very interesting book by Tino Tabak (google him) that talks a lot about doping in cycling in the 1970s. I haven't read it, but I've been meaning to get hold of a copy.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.kennett.co.nz/product/tino-tabak/'>http://www.kennett.co.nz/product/tino-tabak/</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
Greg LeMond was good at both too. Kind of hard to pick an example because just about everyone was doping in the last 30 years.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="sparky" data-cid="600157" data-time="1469442299">
<div>
Amazing to think British riders with a British team have now won 4 out of the last 5 Tours de France. 
David Brailsford is one of the best coaches in world sport at the moment. I'd be very surprised indeed if Team Sky dope. Look at their huge budget, Froome's natural talent, the hard work of the team, their close relationship with the leading Sport Science departments at UK universities and Brailsford's philosophy of marginal gains if you want to find the reasons for their dominance.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Call me a sceptic but Froomes "natural talent" definately wasn't obvious earlier in his career
 
When he raced as an amateur in South Africa he was not even seen as mediocre. He struggled to finish in the pack for short races. Even Armstrong was killing it as a teenager. 
 
Prior to EPO, tour standouts were pretty much always standout talents right from the start of their careers (Froome was average at best). Merck, Hinault and Fignon all won their first tours. Riders didn't suddenly become grand tour contenders mid-way through their careers like Indurain, Riis, Froome etc

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="600173" data-time="1469446797">
<div>
Greg LeMond was good at both too. Kind of hard to pick an example because just about everyone was doping in the last 30 years.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yeah - and therein lies the problem for Froome really.
 
It would be nice to believe he is clean and just a marvellous rider, but I'm struggling with it as are many others.
 
Really unfortunate thing is that if he's clean he can never prove it - can only be proven if he's not and gets caught.

WillieTheWaiter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="599923" data-time="1469404100">
<div>
Especially considering the quality of the field he beat in the time trial
 
Rohan Dennis (held the world hour record for 1month) Tony Martina and Fabiam Cancellara?
 
The course was technical, but these guys are TT Specialists 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
it was a mountain time trial - first since 2002 so those guys would have just rolled the stage. 
 
There was no ITT this year
 
Closest thing to a 'pure' TT rider who can climb a bit (won a mountain stage earlier in tour by breakaway and nearly won the Vuelta last year, cracked on last stage) is Tom Dumoulin who came second.. he's probably the fastest TT rider in the world at the mo. Cacncellara is done and Martin is much slower.
 
dumoulin crashed and broke his wrist, otherwsie he would have pretty much been a lock for the olympics TT.

WillieTheWaiter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="600273" data-time="1469487642">
<div>
Call me a sceptic but Froomes "natural talent" definately wasn't obvious earlier in his career
 
When he raced as an amateur in South Africa he was not even seen as mediocre. He struggled to finish in the pack for short races. Even Armstrong was killing it as a teenager. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
the one thing I've always been bothered by is that Dave Brailsford has always said they saw something special in Froome at the Comm Games in 2006 and they'd been watching his progress.
 
I've always been intrigued as to what they saw as his results were certainly nothing to write home about... unless he was riding a raleigh 20 (unfortuantely can't find any pics..)
 
here's his results
 
Road race.. finished 5 mins down.
24 Emile Abraham (Trinidad & Tobago) 5.15
<div>25 Christopher Clive Froome (Kenya)</div>
<div>best you could say here is that a couple of his future super team mates never finished and he did (but in all likelihood they were domestiques for other riders)</div>
<div>DNF Ian Stannard (England)</div>
<div>DNF Geraint Thomas (Wales)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>TT - pancake flat course (pete latham did it riding a fixed gear).. winner was 48 mins.. so he was mid-50's.. nothing 'special'.</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>17 Christopher Clive Froome (Kenya) 5.20.72</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>MTB race. Lapped, but finished.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>OVL Christopher Clive Froome (Kenya) </div>

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="WillieTheWaiter" data-cid="600340" data-time="1469501428">
<div>
it was a mountain time trial - first since 2002 so those guys would have just rolled the stage. 
 
There was no ITT this year
 
Closest thing to a 'pure' TT rider who can climb a bit (won a mountain stage earlier in tour by breakaway and nearly won the Vuelta last year, cracked on last stage) is Tom Dumoulin who came second.. he's probably the fastest TT rider in the world at the mo. Cacncellara is done and Martin is much slower.
 
dumoulin crashed and broke his wrist, otherwsie he would have pretty much been a lock for the olympics TT.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Dennis came 5th in the stage, that's pretty awesome if he was just rolling.

mariner4life

Watched a great 30 For 30 last night called "Slaying the Badger" on the 1986 tour and Greg LeMond's victory over the great Bernard Hinault.

Obviously, it's American, so it's very LeMond-centric, but what a great story. And fuck the Tour used to be the coolest thing ever. This tour was essentially two blokes going at each other, one day Hinault would attack, and take 5 minutes out of the LeMond, the next day LeMond attacked back, and took back 4.5 of those minutes. And then Hinault would have a beer at the press conference. Awesome.

The tone of the documentary is the filthy French trying to cheat LeMond out of his Tour victory. Some of the parts, like where it was a very real threat that someone might take LeMond out (okay, as told by Greg and his wife) were pretty startling. I liked it though, a good hero-villian sports story (no matter what the slant).

Finished with the rise of EPO, and LeMond's view of Lance of course.

The Silver Fern

Le Tour