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@No-Quarter sorry, i didn't mean to say things like the use of rainbows in support of the LGBTQI+ community or the use of pronouns was the vocal minority, in my world those things are very normal and largely supported. I just mean the reaction to those that dont wear a rainbow, those demanding those players get bans or for them to be fired...in my experience that is the vocal minority on this side of the fence
another example from my real world, i work for a 55k person professional services company, the standard lanyard is a Rainbow and our LQBTQI+ employee network logo, most people wear it....but not all. I sit on the employee network committee and it has never been discussed how to make those that dont wear them wear them
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@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@gt12 said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
I like this board; there are well-argued positions on both sides showing that this shouldn’t be an all or nothing requirement.
If clubs want to have diversity jerseys, just ask the players to wear them and if some don’t that’s fine. In my personal opinion, I think it makes them look like jackasses, but many others would disagree, which is why it shouldn’t be forced on people.
i often feel like one of the more "liberal"/"woke" (depending which side of the fence you sit) members of the board but I thought they should have just been able just wear the normal jersey, the difference would have been negligible on TV or even from the stands.
I feel the sporting organisations have this all wrong. They can have an "inclusive round" if they want (ignoring the obvious issues with what are the other rounds reserved for...) and give money to selected charities, have a range of supporter attire and equipment for sale and simply leave the players to wear their normal playing kit.
We all know that there would be some vocal fuckwit complaining about that solution too. The problem is we give them oxygen rather than ignoring them.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@No-Quarter sorry, i didn't mean to say things like the use of rainbows in support of the LGBTQI+ community or the use of pronouns was the vocal minority, in my world those things are very normal and largely supported. I just mean the reaction to those that dont wear a rainbow, those demanding those players get bans or for them to be fired...in my experience that is the vocal minority on this side of the fence
OK yeah I see what you mean, the point remains though, large sporting bodies and corporations are mandating this stuff, the 'why' there is interesting as from what you are saying it'd only be a minority of people that want it mandated.
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@Kiwiwomble said in [Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions]
i dont believe we should let vocal minorities undermine good work that other are trying to achive
Ok - can you point me to one post from the "silent majority" that goes against the "vocal minority" that got any sort of media coverage? Social or otherwise.
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@No-Quarter said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@No-Quarter sorry, i didn't mean to say things like the use of rainbows in support of the LGBTQI+ community or the use of pronouns was the vocal minority, in my world those things are very normal and largely supported. I just mean the reaction to those that dont wear a rainbow, those demanding those players get bans or for them to be fired...in my experience that is the vocal minority on this side of the fence
OK yeah I see what you mean, the point remains though, large sporting bodies and corporations are mandating this stuff, the 'why' there is interesting as from what you are saying it'd only be a minority of people that want it mandated.
no, i think its only a minority that want people punished. as i just added to my post above, the default is inclusion of all and actively those that are often excluded. so i feel the majority draw the line AFTER people say they dont want to do something...most go "bugger, would be nice if everyone was doing it but you do you"...the minority come out and say there should now be repercussions
as i said above...i probably wouldn't have consulted as it doesn't feel that crazy an idea...i feel where it was really mishandled is after they made their feeling made
@antipodean said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@gt12 said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
I like this board; there are well-argued positions on both sides showing that this shouldn’t be an all or nothing requirement.
If clubs want to have diversity jerseys, just ask the players to wear them and if some don’t that’s fine. In my personal opinion, I think it makes them look like jackasses, but many others would disagree, which is why it shouldn’t be forced on people.
i often feel like one of the more "liberal"/"woke" (depending which side of the fence you sit) members of the board but I thought they should have just been able just wear the normal jersey, the difference would have been negligible on TV or even from the stands.
I feel the sporting organisations have this all wrong. They can have an "inclusive round" if they want (ignoring the obvious issues with what are the other rounds reserved for...) and give money to selected charities, have a range of supporter attire and equipment for sale and simply leave the players to wear their normal playing kit.
We all know that there would be some vocal fuckwit complaining about that solution too. The problem is we give them oxygen rather than ignoring them.
there are several ways they could have handled things better, this being one. It was such a subtle feature to the jersey that this approach might have had more effect
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@Windows97 said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@Kiwiwomble said in [Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions]
i dont believe we should let vocal minorities undermine good work that other are trying to achive
Ok - can you point me to one post from the "silent majority" that goes against the "vocal minority" that got any sort of media coverage? Social or otherwise.
dont really keep list of things like that...and dont really spend any time on twitter as its the worse....but i doubt there are many...and the goes to the other point about the media loves a bit of outrage
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@Kiwiwomble This for me logically is quite a bizarre conversation.
You basically said you met some nice people from the LGBTQI+ community that were inclusive (didn't want people to be fired form their jobs if they didn't share the same view as their community did).
Your assertation is that this is in fact the majority of the community - based off nothing but your own personal circle of friends.
There's enormously huge amounts of evidence on social and in the media that points otherwise, with little to no rebuttal from said "silent majority".
But you with no data assert that your point of view is correct.
It's kinda like me walking outside - saying there's no starving people in the world as I didn't talk to any and when being presented with evidence to the contrary saying all those starving people in Africa are just the vocal minority.
I mean your personal experience is lovely, but I'm having a hard time accepting that it's correct (edit correct world-wide).
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@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@No-Quarter said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@No-Quarter sorry, i didn't mean to say things like the use of rainbows in support of the LGBTQI+ community or the use of pronouns was the vocal minority, in my world those things are very normal and largely supported. I just mean the reaction to those that dont wear a rainbow, those demanding those players get bans or for them to be fired...in my experience that is the vocal minority on this side of the fence
OK yeah I see what you mean, the point remains though, large sporting bodies and corporations are mandating this stuff, the 'why' there is interesting as from what you are saying it'd only be a minority of people that want it mandated.
no, i think its only a minority that want people punished. as i just added to my post above, the default is inclusion of all and actively those that are often excluded. so i feel the majority draw the line AFTER people say they dont want to do something...most go "bugger, would be nice if everyone was doing it but you do you"...the minority come out and say there should now be repercussions
as i said above...i probably wouldn't have consulted as it doesn't feel that crazy an idea...i feel where it was really mishandled is after they made their feeling made
If it's only a minority that want people punished, then why are players being punished for not wearing the rainbow? There's a disconnect there - massive sporting bodies and corporations punishing people for not celebrating the rainbow, while in the general population you say nobody agrees with that? I just don't really buy that.
I'm also interested in what you think about some of the more serious problems I referenced in my post. When you wear a rainbow to show support, does that mean you support:
- Biological males competing in women's professional sports?
- Biological males being allowed to self-ID as women and enter women's only spaces?
- Children being exposed to sexually explicit performances, such as drag shows and (some) Pride parades?
- Hormone treatment and surgery for children that are gender a-typical? (this is particularly serious)
These are important questions for a lot of people. I can't in good conscience throw my full support behind a movement where the above are inextricably linked to it.
A public figure that has publicly pushed back against much of the above is JK Rowling, and the torrent of hate, death threats, and attacks on her character has been astonishing. She hasn't really said anything controversial at all, but the reaction has been enormous. A small minority?
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@Windows97 as i explained i feel my experience is slightly more than just my friends, sitting on a committee that actively works on LGBTQI+ issues in a large company, but also admitted these are just my experiences so no more or less valid than other people experiences
I guess as i said earlier, i put a lot more weight in the actions and opinions of people i talk to in the real world than what twitter or the media decides to show me
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@No-Quarter i think the clubs and governing organisation as just as likely to be swayed by a bit of media hyperbole as anyone else...and so react
re transgender people in sport....i just dont know, and thats why i dont participate in that thread, i dont know what the right answer is, i dont know enough about everything and see both side of things, but i know know whats right and so largely keep my mouth shut
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@Kiwiwomble So your trying to tell me that people haven't been fired from their jobs? Have not been forced from public positions? Have not had court cases filed against them?
I mean you want to support your cause while completely ignoring and basically saying that the harm caused to people by the "vocal minority" doesn't exist?
Like I say - I don't decry your personal experience, but you saying your personal experience represents the world view? No I don't think so.
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@Windows97 i said nothing of the sort, those things have definitely happened, i have said a few times that people are acting on and reacting too a very vocal minority, in my experience
I also never said my experience was a world view, very specifically had said it is just the world i live in, my sphere, i feel that sphere is slightly larger than others might be but have also very specifically acknowledged there are people out there that hold the extreme views
I just see those extreme views almost exclusively on line or on the media and very rarely in the real world
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@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
I just see those extreme views almost exclusively on line or on the media and
very rarely"more increasingly in" the real world.I feel the above is more apt.
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@Windows97 im sorry thats the case for you, im sure its very confronting in person, but as the statement was about my experience and not yours then i would have to disagree with your "correction"
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@Kiwiwomble And as my statement was what's happing in the real world and not just in your personal experience I stand by my correction
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@Windows97 ...but the statement you have "corrected" was about my personal experience, you think its fair to change other people words about their own life?, you're welcome to make your own comment about your negative experiences. as far as i can tell they seem largely based on social media so im not sure how representative it is of the real world
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@Kiwiwomble And like I said I'm not decrying your personal experience, nor have I suffered any negative experiences in my life.
I'm questioning whether your "real word" experience is actually representative of what's happening across the globe.
You yourself have said you view is not representative of what's happening across the globe.
But whenever I say I don't think your real world experience is representative of what's happening across the globe you get annoyed with me.
I basically don't buy your "vocal minority" call.
You can present me with information to prove otherwise, but I think you will find that the number of people being affected (i.e. forced redundancy, forced to step aside from public office, forced to go to court) by your so called "extremists" is actually going up and exponentially so - which would prove me right.
I'm happy to be proven wrong - but I need more than "in my personal experience" to convince me.
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@Windows97 said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@Kiwiwomble And like I said I'm not decrying your personal experience, nor have I suffered any negative experiences in my life.
I'm questioning whether your "real word" experience is actually representative of what's happening across the globe.
You yourself have said you view is not representative of what's happening across the globe.
But whenever I say I don't think your real world experience is representative of what's happening across the globe you get annoyed with me.
I basically don't buy your "vocal minority" call.
You can present me with information to prove otherwise, but I think you will find that the number of people being affected (i.e. forced redundancy, forced to step aside from public office, forced to go to court) by your so called "extremists" is actually going up and exponentially so - which would prove me right.
I'm happy to be proven wrong - but I need more than "in my personal experience" to convince me.
this is where i bow out, we've gone past any discussion into the realm of misrepresenting what is being said to justify an having argument
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@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@gt12 said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
I like this board; there are well-argued positions on both sides showing that this shouldn’t be an all or nothing requirement.
If clubs want to have diversity jerseys, just ask the players to wear them and if some don’t that’s fine. In my personal opinion, I think it makes them look like jackasses, but many others would disagree, which is why it shouldn’t be forced on people.
i often feel like one of the more "liberal"/"woke" (depending which side of the fence you sit) members of the board but I thought they should have just been able just wear the normal jersey, the difference would have been negligible on TV or even from the stands.
I'll be walking in the Midsumma Pride march here in Melbourne this weekend and so i would like to think i talk with quite a few people in the LGBTQI+ community....and i dont think i came across anyone IRL that wanted those guys to lose thero jobs or anything, the overwhelming majority of people i talk too would LIKE everyone to be openly and actively supportive. Regardless of what some of us would like to think it IS still hard being OUT in lots of ways and so active support in the form of these kinds of PRIDE initiative does achieve a lot....but no one ive met IRL wants to force people to do things they feel so uncomfortable about
Shame you tapped out of the conversation because I'd be interested is hearing what you think a pride parade would actually achieve . I know corporates love to fly the pride flags because its a really easy way to boost their ESG scores but there's never been a more accepting place and time to be gay than there currently is in the west.
Josh Zseps makes a pretty solid case for the whole concept being passed its use by date and its long ceased to be worthwhile . https://play.acast.com/s/uncomfortable-conversations-with-josh-szeps/do-we-need-gay-prideThe other part of this and is more relevant to the thread is the selfishness of the current LBGT movement . Andrew Sullivan has pointed out a few times in countries like Poland and Hungary which are far less open to the lbgt movement campaigners there face an uphill battle because their counterparts in the west are doing their opponents work for them. If they try and get more of their rights recognised its pretty easy for the more conservative side of the country has to share a video of cops twerking in a pride parade , or drag queen story time or an athlete being socially ostracized and his career ruined because he won't wear a symbol at odds with his personal values.
One last thing , @Stargazer in one of your posts on this topic you seem to want to live in the world described in Demolition man . You know that a was a satire right? The only thing it had going for it was Sandra Bullock in a leather cops uniform.
Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions