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@No-Quarter said in Campbell Johnstone:
I see your point on that, but it does cross an important line between being accepting of other people, and actively participating in and celebrating them. It's a very small step, granted, but once that line is crossed it becomes very grey as to how much they are expected to participate in it is. So while I pretty strongly disagree with pretty much all of the religious views of players like that, I completely understand why they would take a stand on it. I really don't think forcing people to celebrate the LGBT community is having a positive effect on views towards them.
When gay rights first became an issue, the refrain was "we just want equality". As it gained weight, some conservatives suggested mockingly that it would soon become compulsory. They were scoffed at, and said, no, "they just deserve equality".
Well we have reached a point where it is often effectively compulsory to celebrate gayness. We are only one step off what the conservatives mocked and which their opponents said would never happen.
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@Chester-Draws I don't think it's about celebrating gayness at all. Those rainbow jerseys are about celebrating inclusivity.
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@Chester-Draws said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Nepia said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Chester-Draws said in Campbell Johnstone:
If people want to be Marxists,
Surely you can see the problem with your analogy?
I'm not suggesting that people choose to be gay. I just wanted an analogy that avoided the white heat that sexuality brings, especially in the world at the moment where even the slightest criticism of any sexual behaviour is read as some sort of "phobia".
I have no interest in a workplace that makes me celebrate anything I am opposed to morally. In my case Hammers and Sickles would trigger that.
Whereas I would just be irritated by rainbows because they have now just become tedious virtue symbols. (See BMW putting rainbows on their Twitter accounts, except in the Middle East, because they actually don't have any moral courage at all.)
You are welcome to find a better analogy.
I don't think you can avoid the "white heat that sexuality" (not sexual behaviour) brings when making your analogy because sexuality is the point in this case.
I don't want to find a better analogy, you're the one making the case for it. As I read it, you believe that any moral objection is fine in taking a stand against a workplace?
Do you extend the moral objection theory to indigenous and woman's round's too? Can players choose not to work those weeks too? What about Pasifika rounds?
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@Nepia said in Campbell Johnstone:
I don't think you can avoid the "white heat that sexuality" (not sexual behaviour) brings when making your analogy because sexuality is the point in this case.
I don't want to find a better analogy, you're the one making the case for it. As I read it, you believe that any moral objection is fine in taking a stand against a workplace?
Do you extend the moral objection theory to indigenous and woman's round's too? Can players choose not to work those weeks too? What about Pasifika rounds?
If people want to take a moral stand against it and not participate in those rounds, then following the same logic this should not be a problem.
I think you'd be pretty much so unemployable if you did, but that is another discussion.
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@MajorRage said in Campbell Johnstone:
@Nepia said in Campbell Johnstone:
I don't think you can avoid the "white heat that sexuality" (not sexual behaviour) brings when making your analogy because sexuality is the point in this case.
I don't want to find a better analogy, you're the one making the case for it. As I read it, you believe that any moral objection is fine in taking a stand against a workplace?
Do you extend the moral objection theory to indigenous and woman's round's too? Can players choose not to work those weeks too? What about Pasifika rounds?
If people want to take a moral stand against it and not participate in those rounds, then following the same logic this should not be a problem.
I think you'd be pretty much so unemployable if you did, but that is another discussion.
Isn’t that exactly the case? No one is being denied an opinion or action but the consequences may not be to their liking?
But yes, I have a problem with the “get out clause” of beliefs (I’m not sure we are talking morals here but beliefs that form moral judgments). Beliefs aren’t necessarily factual.
I agree with @Nepia that anyone could conjure up a belief to support their actions and we know that doesn’t fly by n reality. -
@Stargazer said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@Chester-Draws I don't think it's about celebrating gayness at all. Those rainbow jerseys are about celebrating inclusivity.
I agree with your first line. I think what the NBL has done over the last week has been very respectful and the story of Trevor Torrance and previously Isaac Humphries have been educative.
I know that there are reservations from some about wearing (or associating with) the rainbow not because they aren’t inclusive, tolerant or kind, but because of concerns of what is sometimes done under the banner of the rainbow symbol.
I’m not here to sensationalise this but this came up on Twitter and there would be many that are inclusive and respectful that would have concerns with this and the rainbow symbol is front and centre of it. I can’t speak for all who opposed wearing the Manly jersey, but I do know that one of them had these concerns and that they all weren’t coming from the same point of view on it.
Something I would put in a similar vein is that during the Black Lives Matter protests etc, I spoke with a good friend who’s been in Australia for a couple years playing basketball, he’s black and from Baltimore. One of the first things he said to me when I asked him what he thought about what was happening, “I wouldn’t be wearing that %#$? BLM t-shirt!” For him that “movement” (how he described it) was a problem but yet he felt pretty passionately about issues to do violence, injustice and racism and had been active in his community back home. Even though pro sports people, some that he knew, and some of his friends were all wearing it, he and many of his family didn’t.
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@ACT-Crusader agree completely, the problem with movements like this is they get used by a wide range of people for a wide range of purposes, so giving blanket approval and celebration of it becomes difficult. That picture above is inappropriate to put it lightly. I also regularly see videos of drag queens performing sexually explicit routines at "family friendly" events in front of young children, and the rainbow flag is again front and centre of that performance.
Further to that, LGBT itself is a very wide group of people with varying beliefs, and that's not including the many other initials that have been added to that initialism (not acronym, thanks @Kruse). The Transgender part really stands out as being a very different movement to the gay/lesbian/bi part, I don't know why that has been tacked on and I see some groups are trying to exclude that as Transgender people face a completely different set of challenges in society.
As usual it's not nearly as simple as people make out (E.G. person that wears rainbow = inclusive, person that doesn't = bigot), but that level of nuance is never properly acknowledged in the public debate and mainstream media outlets.
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I like this board; there are well-argued positions on both sides showing that this shouldn’t be an all or nothing requirement.
If clubs want to have diversity jerseys, just ask the players to wear them and if some don’t that’s fine. In my personal opinion, I think it makes them look like jackasses, but many others would disagree, which is why it shouldn’t be forced on people.
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@Stargazer said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@Chester-Draws I don't think it's about celebrating gayness at all. Those rainbow jerseys are about celebrating inclusivity.
Which is why they celebrate the people who don't wear them with equal inclusivity and acceptance.
Oh...
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@gt12 said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
I like this board; there are well-argued positions on both sides showing that this shouldn’t be an all or nothing requirement.
If clubs want to have diversity jerseys, just ask the players to wear them and if some don’t that’s fine. In my personal opinion, I think it makes them look like jackasses, but many others would disagree, which is why it shouldn’t be forced on people.
i often feel like one of the more "liberal"/"woke" (depending which side of the fence you sit) members of the board but I thought they should have just been able just wear the normal jersey, the difference would have been negligible on TV or even from the stands.
I'll be walking in the Midsumma Pride march here in Melbourne this weekend and so i would like to think i talk with quite a few people in the LGBTQI+ community....and i dont think i came across anyone IRL that wanted those guys to lose thero jobs or anything, the overwhelming majority of people i talk too would LIKE everyone to be openly and actively supportive. Regardless of what some of us would like to think it IS still hard being OUT in lots of ways and so active support in the form of these kinds of PRIDE initiative does achieve a lot....but no one ive met IRL wants to force people to do things they feel so uncomfortable about
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@Kiwiwomble that's all very nice, and I'm not dismissing your personal experiences.
However there are certainly more than enough people who are happy with forcing people to do/wear things they feel uncomfortable about.
Furthermore once people state they are uncomfortable there are more than enough people that vociferously insist that above mentioned "uncomfortable people" should not be employed and fired forthwith. (For examples simply read this thread).
So it's nice people from that community think that, that is what I would call being inclusive. It's just a pity there doesn't seem enough of them to out-voice the "wear this rainbow flag - or we will fire you" section, which I assure you, certainly exists.
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@Windows97 said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@Kiwiwomble that's all very nice, and I'm not dismissing your personal experiences.
However there are certainly more than enough people who are happy with forcing people to do/wear things they feel uncomfortable about.
Furthermore once people state they are uncomfortable there are more than enough people that vociferously insist that above mentioned "uncomfortable people" should not be employed and fired forthwith. (For examples simply read this thread).
So it's nice people from that community think that, that is what I would call being inclusive. It's just a pity there doesn't seem enough of them to out-voice the "wear this rainbow flag - or we will fire you" section, which I assure you, certainly exists.
in fairness thats kind of like me looking at the KKK and writing off all christians....or even the dickhead % of the rugby community that think its all about smashing blokes...or the ultras in football and claiming all football fans are basically gang members
i dont believe we should let vocal minorities undermine good work that other are trying to achive
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@Kiwiwomble if it's only a minority of people like that, then why do you think there's such a big uproar when a player says they don't want to wear the rainbow?
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@No-Quarter said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
then why do you think there's such a big uproar when a player says they don't want to wear the rainbow?
because the media can write 87 articles based on not much more than 5 tweets and an interview with the super specific awareness group that is most "affected"
the root cause of almost all these debates is twitter. twitter is fucking evil.
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@No-Quarter largely because the media loves to blow things up and then social media give that minority a big soapbox, in my opinion anyway
As i say, if i had been in charge i probably wouldnt have consolidated the players before designing, just because by and large, daya to day i feel most people are fine with it....i really think things were just handled poorly once those player made their feelings clear. As i say i would have let them wear the normal jersey and the whole story would have died pretty quick....but the league enforced their rules about jersey all having to be identical...and the media got on it and then the club reacted and shit show snowballed
by and large i think everyone reacts to too much they see on line and ignore what they experience in real life
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See I'm not completely convinced by the "it's just the media blowing things up" argument. There's definitely some truth to that, but we're effectively saying large sporting bodies and corporations, who are driven by their bottom lines, are enforcing a radical viewpoint to appease a small minority of people?
There's some pretty insane things happening across the board to appease this small minority. Forcing people to wear rainbows, state their "pronouns", allowing biological males to compete in women's professional sports, telling children that if they are gender a-typical they are actually the opposite sex and then putting them on hormone treatments and surgery well before they are ready to understand concepts like that, exposing children to sexually explicit material, the list goes on. Are these things all driven by just a small minority of people? That seems like an extraordinarily powerful minority if they are.
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@No-Quarter sorry, i didn't mean to say things like the use of rainbows in support of the LGBTQI+ community or the use of pronouns was the vocal minority, in my world those things are very normal and largely supported. I just mean the reaction to those that dont wear a rainbow, those demanding those players get bans or for them to be fired...in my experience that is the vocal minority on this side of the fence
another example from my real world, i work for a 55k person professional services company, the standard lanyard is a Rainbow and our LQBTQI+ employee network logo, most people wear it....but not all. I sit on the employee network committee and it has never been discussed how to make those that dont wear them wear them
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@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@gt12 said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
I like this board; there are well-argued positions on both sides showing that this shouldn’t be an all or nothing requirement.
If clubs want to have diversity jerseys, just ask the players to wear them and if some don’t that’s fine. In my personal opinion, I think it makes them look like jackasses, but many others would disagree, which is why it shouldn’t be forced on people.
i often feel like one of the more "liberal"/"woke" (depending which side of the fence you sit) members of the board but I thought they should have just been able just wear the normal jersey, the difference would have been negligible on TV or even from the stands.
I feel the sporting organisations have this all wrong. They can have an "inclusive round" if they want (ignoring the obvious issues with what are the other rounds reserved for...) and give money to selected charities, have a range of supporter attire and equipment for sale and simply leave the players to wear their normal playing kit.
We all know that there would be some vocal fuckwit complaining about that solution too. The problem is we give them oxygen rather than ignoring them.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions:
@No-Quarter sorry, i didn't mean to say things like the use of rainbows in support of the LGBTQI+ community or the use of pronouns was the vocal minority, in my world those things are very normal and largely supported. I just mean the reaction to those that dont wear a rainbow, those demanding those players get bans or for them to be fired...in my experience that is the vocal minority on this side of the fence
OK yeah I see what you mean, the point remains though, large sporting bodies and corporations are mandating this stuff, the 'why' there is interesting as from what you are saying it'd only be a minority of people that want it mandated.
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@Kiwiwomble said in [Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions]
i dont believe we should let vocal minorities undermine good work that other are trying to achive
Ok - can you point me to one post from the "silent majority" that goes against the "vocal minority" that got any sort of media coverage? Social or otherwise.
Sports requiring athletes to support cultural positions