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@victor-meldrew said in Brexit:
@nostrildamus said in Brexit:
thank you both that is not a perspective I was expecting and I'll do some more research before I venture into this topic again.
You do realise this is the Fern don't you?
Sometimes I don't know what it is!
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@majorrage said in Brexit:
Probably the best column I’ve ever read in the Guardian.
I suspect he (or the editor) has simplified the reasons for and against Brexit but I appreciate his conciseness. But also, some EU nationals may not want to return to the UK because they don't feel welcome. Based purely on personal connections so yes this is anecdotal but I have a few EU friends working in the UK who feel less comfortable there, socially-speaking.
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@nostrildamus yeah, there is anecdotal evidence of that, but it doesn't add up to my observations. Our polish cleaner returned home as she missed her son too much, but our current one (Romanian) has no intention of leaving. My daughters BFF's Dad (Polish) runs a local gardening company (15 vans worth so not small) and has lost no workers.
In our circle of friends, we have some Dutch, Finnish, French. One family left to return to NL, but it was for lifestyle / family reasons.
So yes, some people have left, but none for Brexit / feeling unwelcome reasons that I know of. The HGV driver issue is going to go on and cause a lot more headaches though. There are shortages in Germany as well, so they are offering premium pay. If you were Euro, why would you look to come here when you could easily go somewhere closer and where you don't need a visa?
But remainers, and especially twitter remainers are colossally overstating the extent of that problem in supermarkets. At least around my way. There is the odd empty shelf, but hardly anything worth panicking, let alone getting all political, about. People in this country are simply so used to having the option of absolutely everything at their beck and call. Not having a specific brand / shape of pasta is not worth getting worried about.
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@majorrage has there been a problem with GPS or did they reach an agreement with the EU over the satelites?
Regards discrimination, most of my foreign pals are outside London (and some are far north England) so that may be a factor. -
@nostrildamus said in Brexit:
@majorrage has there been a problem with GPS or did they reach an agreement with the EU over the satelites?
Regards discrimination, most of my foreign pals are outside London (and some are far north England) so that may be a factor.Talk on that has gone quiet since the deal was signed, so I suspect this was included in that.
No doubt location is a factor, but I should point out, I'm not in London.
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@Crucial
I looked at some his other video titles.- Austerity 2.0 - Another Tory Cull of the Poor?
- This Unpopular Tory Brexit Is Pleasing No-one.
- How Brexit Ensured Britain's Descent Into Chaos
- Tory Brexit Britain Is A Global Laughing Stock
- DIRECT Action YOU Can Take To DEFUND THE TORIES!
Might be a bit biased and selective. Ya think?
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@Frank You only have to look at the lurid rhetoric to come to a sensible conclusion on that score! I'm tempted to watch that vid though just to see what the arguments are - in effect to see if there is any real substance to back things up. My logical side says unlikely but my curious side says Hmmm, I wonder.
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@Crucial
I looked at some his other video titles.- Austerity 2.0 - Another Tory Cull of the Poor?
- This Unpopular Tory Brexit Is Pleasing No-one.
- How Brexit Ensured Britain's Descent Into Chaos
- Tory Brexit Britain Is A Global Laughing Stock
- DIRECT Action YOU Can Take To DEFUND THE TORIES!
Might be a bit biased and selective. Ya think?
I was nearly going to comment on the inflammatory headlines but thought that is pretty much par for the course in any media form these days.
And yes, it annoys me as well.
The commentary is fact based and if you watch his explanation of the channel he openly states the aim of pointing out facts that don’t fit the political narrative.
I totally get that there may be facts that do but I am struggling to find those.Economic indicators at this time do seem to show a lot of downsides to Brexit without much light at the end of the tunnel. Pretty easy to see why a conclusion can be drawn that the public were sold a pup and for those bearing the brunt there is justification to say I told you so.
I m happy to see explanations of the upside if I can find them.
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I'm still searching for the cred of this commentary YT channel but an interesting array of 'facts' around where Brexit has lead the UK.
But vast majority don't want to rejoin. Not seeing much of those headlines in MSM!
This isn’t MSM though. Where is the explanation of that dichotomy?
Is it stoicism? We created this, don’t like the results but will see it through?
I’m curious.Personally I think Brexit was a really dumb thing to do but since it happened I am curious about the outcome
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I'm still searching for the cred of this commentary YT channel but an interesting array of 'facts' around where Brexit has lead the UK.
But vast majority don't want to rejoin. Not seeing much of those headlines in MSM!
This isn’t MSM though. Where is the explanation of that dichotomy?
Is it stoicism? We created this, don’t like the results but will see it through?
I’m curious.Personally I think Brexit was a really dumb thing to do but since it happened I am curious about the outcome
With all due respect, above two posts sound like a conclusion already looking reasons to support that.
Doesn’t make you wrong, or right. But it shows. And agrees, the truth.
Brexit would be smashing it if supported at 80%. unequivocally.
But country is too divided because of it, and Tory hatred is at extreme levels. Country can thrive, but won’t, because too many don’t want it to. It’s that simple.
We will be back in EU by 2027.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
Country can thrive, but won’t, because too many don’t want it to. It’s that simple.
An opinion.
I keep out of this board mostly as it is just polemic and even if you try to be open to both sides and ask for an opposing view supported by fact you get accused of having made your mind up.
Not attacking you or your comment but I'm not stupid enough to think that people's opinions aren't tainted. I actually like to hear both sides and make my own mind up. In this day and age that gets very difficult
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
Country can thrive, but won’t, because too many don’t want it to. It’s that simple.
An opinion.
I keep out of this board mostly as it is just polemic and even if you try to be open to both sides and ask for an opposing view supported by fact you get accused of having made your mind up.
Not attacking you or your comment but I'm not stupid enough to think that people's opinions aren't tainted. I actually like to hear both sides and make my own mind up. In this day and age that gets very difficult
Apologies, that posted sound more aggressive than it meant to.
I agree with your response entirely.
The point I’m making is that we will never know the true truth about Brexit. Is the economy down vs Europe since Brexit? Unequivocally, yes. Is it Brexits fault? Yes, and no.
In my view, it’s down more because of the pandemic. An underbelly of this country has been exposed. It has a very large, extremely lazy, sub section. They were lazy before, they got lazier under govt support snd they fight going back.
The thought of picking up the slack is non existent. Blame the govt, instead of working harder. Jobs are EVERYWHERE for the poor. Because people left after the pandemic and the Poms didn’t pick up the slack. They moaned, they whinged …. Then sat on their arses as the vacancies piled up. The media has ploughed so much negativity that ppl have lost faith, and the will, to improve.
It’s sad. Under a United country, it would thrive. Properly. But there are too many who would rather piss, whinge, moan than take advantage of the opportunities.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
Country can thrive, but won’t, because too many don’t want it to. It’s that simple.
An opinion.
I keep out of this board mostly as it is just polemic and even if you try to be open to both sides and ask for an opposing view supported by fact you get accused of having made your mind up.
Not attacking you or your comment but I'm not stupid enough to think that people's opinions aren't tainted. I actually like to hear both sides and make my own mind up. In this day and age that gets very difficult
Apologies, that posted sound more aggressive than it meant to.
I agree with your response entirely.
The point I’m making is that we will never know the true truth about Brexit. Is the economy down vs Europe since Brexit? Unequivocally, yes. Is it Brexits fault? Yes, and no.
In my view, it’s down more because of the pandemic. An underbelly of this country has been exposed. It has a very large, extremely lazy, sub section. They were lazy before, they got lazier under govt support snd they fight going back.
The thought of picking up the slack is non existent. Blame the govt, instead of working harder. Jobs are EVERYWHERE for the poor. Because people left after the pandemic and the Poms didn’t pick up the slack. They moaned, they whinged …. Then sat on their arses as the vacancies piled up. The media has ploughed so much negativity that ppl have lost faith, and the will, to improve.
It’s sad. Under a United country, it would thrive. Properly. But there are too many who would rather piss, whinge, moan than take advantage of the opportunities.
Back in the early part of this thread when debating/arguing sides this very outcome was predicted. I have worked in environments where it was Euro immigration doing most of the grunt work and on the rare occasions a local would try out they would be gone in hours as it was too hard (or easier not to work). Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of how this situation came about the decision to leave should have been made knowing and recognising the facts about the environment it was being made in. Instead the arguments for both sides were made based on passions rather than facts.
UK has never been a united country despite the name and that goes not only for nations within but areas/towns etc. The idea that everyone would pull together after a decision (especially such a contentious one) was hardly a good recipe. -
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
c. An underbelly of this country has been exposed. It has a very large, extremely lazy, sub section. They were lazy before, they got lazier under govt support snd they fight going back.
The thought of picking up the slack is non existent. Blame the govt, instead of working harder. Jobs are EVERYWHERE for the poor. Because people left after the pandemic and the Poms didn’t pick up the slack. They moaned, they whinged …. Then sat on their arses as the vacancies piled up. The media has ploughed so much negativity that ppl have lost faith, and the will, to improve.
It’s sad. Under a United country, it would thrive. Properly. But there are too many who would rather piss, whinge, moan than take advantage of the opportunities.your talking about nz right
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
Country can thrive, but won’t, because too many don’t want it to. It’s that simple.
An opinion.
I keep out of this board mostly as it is just polemic and even if you try to be open to both sides and ask for an opposing view supported by fact you get accused of having made your mind up.
Not attacking you or your comment but I'm not stupid enough to think that people's opinions aren't tainted. I actually like to hear both sides and make my own mind up. In this day and age that gets very difficult
Apologies, that posted sound more aggressive than it meant to.
I agree with your response entirely.
The point I’m making is that we will never know the true truth about Brexit. Is the economy down vs Europe since Brexit? Unequivocally, yes. Is it Brexits fault? Yes, and no.
In my view, it’s down more because of the pandemic. An underbelly of this country has been exposed. It has a very large, extremely lazy, sub section. They were lazy before, they got lazier under govt support snd they fight going back.
The thought of picking up the slack is non existent. Blame the govt, instead of working harder. Jobs are EVERYWHERE for the poor. Because people left after the pandemic and the Poms didn’t pick up the slack. They moaned, they whinged …. Then sat on their arses as the vacancies piled up. The media has ploughed so much negativity that ppl have lost faith, and the will, to improve.
It’s sad. Under a United country, it would thrive. Properly. But there are too many who would rather piss, whinge, moan than take advantage of the opportunities.
Back in the early part of this thread when debating/arguing sides this very outcome was predicted. I have worked in environments where it was Euro immigration doing most of the grunt work and on the rare occasions a local would try out they would be gone in hours as it was too hard (or easier not to work). Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of how this situation came about the decision to leave should have been made knowing and recognising the facts about the environment it was being made in. Instead the arguments for both sides were made based on passions rather than facts.
UK has never been a united country despite the name and that goes not only for nations within but areas/towns etc. The idea that everyone would pull together after a decision (especially such a contentious one) was hardly a good recipe.Again, with respect, that is a lazy stereotype which is easy to apply.
I work for a Dutch org and the Brit’s are so far ahead of the Dutch it’s ridiculous. The tradesman we get in, the Brit’s are good, the Euros are hard working but cut corners. That’s the truth if what I see.
Yet, I read your post and knod along.
I believe the UK would be stronger in the EU as the leave crew would have accepted the result and worked to continue to make their lives better.
The reverse simply does not reply.
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@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
@MajorRage said in Brexit:
Country can thrive, but won’t, because too many don’t want it to. It’s that simple.
An opinion.
I keep out of this board mostly as it is just polemic and even if you try to be open to both sides and ask for an opposing view supported by fact you get accused of having made your mind up.
Not attacking you or your comment but I'm not stupid enough to think that people's opinions aren't tainted. I actually like to hear both sides and make my own mind up. In this day and age that gets very difficult
Apologies, that posted sound more aggressive than it meant to.
I agree with your response entirely.
The point I’m making is that we will never know the true truth about Brexit. Is the economy down vs Europe since Brexit? Unequivocally, yes. Is it Brexits fault? Yes, and no.
In my view, it’s down more because of the pandemic. An underbelly of this country has been exposed. It has a very large, extremely lazy, sub section. They were lazy before, they got lazier under govt support snd they fight going back.
The thought of picking up the slack is non existent. Blame the govt, instead of working harder. Jobs are EVERYWHERE for the poor. Because people left after the pandemic and the Poms didn’t pick up the slack. They moaned, they whinged …. Then sat on their arses as the vacancies piled up. The media has ploughed so much negativity that ppl have lost faith, and the will, to improve.
It’s sad. Under a United country, it would thrive. Properly. But there are too many who would rather piss, whinge, moan than take advantage of the opportunities.
Back in the early part of this thread when debating/arguing sides this very outcome was predicted. I have worked in environments where it was Euro immigration doing most of the grunt work and on the rare occasions a local would try out they would be gone in hours as it was too hard (or easier not to work). Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of how this situation came about the decision to leave should have been made knowing and recognising the facts about the environment it was being made in. Instead the arguments for both sides were made based on passions rather than facts.
UK has never been a united country despite the name and that goes not only for nations within but areas/towns etc. The idea that everyone would pull together after a decision (especially such a contentious one) was hardly a good recipe.Again, with respect, that is a lazy stereotype which is easy to apply.
I work for a Dutch org and the Brit’s are so far ahead of the Dutch it’s ridiculous. The tradesman we get in, the Brit’s are good, the Euros are hard working but cut corners. That’s the truth if what I see.
Yet, I read your post and knod along.
I believe the UK would be stronger in the EU as the leave crew would have accepted the result and worked to continue to make their lives better.
The reverse simply does not reply.
It wasn't a stereotype it was a real life example and observation (just as yours own) in the type of job that was previously filled by euro workers. The disincentive in coming off benefits to these low paying jobs is high for locals. Agree about trades. Plenty of cheap cowboy tradies around.
Until I see some upward trends or turnarounds it is looking like a failed ideology. Not saying the underlying concept or desires were wrong just that the practicalities were never going to work out.
Brexit