Red Cards
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@Stargazer guess they look back to the 'bloodgate' debacle, which was in the NH...
I honestly cant see any coach/player going out to deliberately do something damn the consequences, but I do think there needs to be a financial repercussion on Cards, to the player and team/coach (the player fine would need to be relative to earnings, so probably wouldnt be able to be disclosed given an NPC only player might earn $20k, his fine would need to be different to Scott Barrets fines for same offence)
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@Stargazer said in Red Cards:
I've seen discussions on NH forums and social media, both in French and English, where people argue against the 20-minute red card, because they think coaches will use it to field an "expendable" player to take out an important opposition player (read: injure him, so he has to leave the field), who then gets red-carded and can be replaced by a better player after 20 minutes.
I've seen that attitude in discussions about cards, foul play etc in the NH before. Not sure whether it's just conspiracy theories, or whether there's some truth to it that NH coaches would resort to that kind of tactics, but if that's a common thought among those in power positions as well, then that explains some of the resistance to 20-minute red cards.
By the way, if it could be proven that a coach and player do that, it's intentional foul play and the "expendable" player will not only face a much longer suspension (high-end entry point instead of mid-range), but coaches will face fines and bans, too (possibly life-bans)! Not to mention that if they resorted to kicking or punching type of offences, the entry-points for suspensions are much higher to begin with.
I'm convinced most of the people on social media rugby forums have never played a game in their lives.
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@taniwharugby said in Red Cards:
@Stargazer guess they look back to the 'bloodgate' debacle, which was in the NH...
I honestly cant see any coach/player going out to deliberately do something damn the consequences, but I do think there needs to be a financial repercussion on Cards, to the player and team/coach (the player fine would need to be relative to earnings, so probably wouldnt be able to be disclosed given an NPC only player might earn $20k, his fine would need to be different to Scott Barrets fines for same offence)
The example they might remember is the Boks trying to take out Wilkinson.
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An age group club team I co-coached in the ACT had their star player kicked in the leg (probably aiming for the knee) 5 minutes into the final by an opposition player that was sent off. The comp rule for that age group was that RCs could be replaced immediately and guess who the sub was? Only their captain who had previously started every game.
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@Crucial see at club level and below, I think red cards stay unchanged, because there are thugs that play and would really give no shits if they are banned, and not coming back on is probably the biggest deterrent you have.
I'm only looking at provincial above, where these people are being paid, and most would have aspirations of super rugby or higher, meaning something like that will impact thier career.
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@taniwharugby litigate on what grounds? The system necessarily allows for refereeing error.
To litigate in the sense you are talking about there would probably have to be some action that resulted in financial loss and that breached WR regulations.
The litigation im talking about is a class action for brain damage/CTE from former players. To combat a claim in negligence in, for example, the UK or Aus WR need to be able to demonstrate they took steps to mitigate a risk they should have been aware of. They know about CTE.
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@Derpus in the real world there is insurance for an error causing others a financial loss...and if there is insurance, often there is an avenue for recovery of those costs from the at fault party.
An extreme example I am sure, but a possible one...low risk is not no risk.
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@taniwharugby sporting teams lose money because of sporting results all the time. You can't sue because of it.
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@Derpus they do, but mostly due to their team not being good enough, but if an appointed official makes a critical error that alters the outcome, which is subsequently overturned, that is different.
I am just saying it potentially opens up another can of worms.
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@taniwharugby such an outcome would present serious issues for the continued viability of professional sport. Insurance premiums would be higher than player salaries. I really doubt it would ever happen.
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Sam Gilbert's reddest red in a season of reds raises a question for me.
How much coaching mitigation into red card situations actually happens?
I know there is a lot of talk about lowering tackle points etc (most of which comes post a RC) but it has been yonks since coaches and players have known the risks of hooking a leg and driving up in a cleanup yet it still happens.
Hooking a leg is a deliberate coached technique to unbalance a player. Is the reward from moving a player at a ruck really worth the risk of it going wrong and getting RC'd?
This one is easily fixed yet hasn't been which means we are probably still going to see slack technique causing reds.
It's not 'right' but it also undermines the argument against a 20 minute red in that years of full reds hasn't changed coaches so why not keep some shape to the game?The big change I would like to see is punishment for foul play that results in a player having to exit the game. Basically if you injure a player through an illegal act (that was deemed illegal for safety reasons) then you must leave the field as well. Whether it is a straight swap out, YC then swap or RC and swap probably depends on severity.
As example I point to the illegal clean on Sam Cane (side entry and lower limb targeting ). If that had actually been picked up by the officials should the offending player get to continue to play? -
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@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
North are just scared of litigation. Everything is always about money.
Bit tin foil hat this.
Really? I would have thought fear of litigation was a major player.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Red Cards:
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
North are just scared of litigation. Everything is always about money.
Bit tin foil hat this.
Really? I would have thought fear of litigation was a major player.
In the WR talk and press releases about these measures there is a lot of strongly worded reference to player wellbeing that looks/sounds very lawyer-ish and a clear record of "look at what we are doing/can't blame us". All fair enough.
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Sam Gilbert's reddest red in a season of reds raises a question for me.
How much coaching mitigation into red card situations actually happens?
I know there is a lot of talk about lowering tackle points etc (most of which comes post a RC) but it has been yonks since coaches and players have known the risks of hooking a leg and driving up in a cleanup yet it still happens.
Hooking a leg is a deliberate coached technique to unbalance a player. Is the reward from moving a player at a ruck really worth the risk of it going wrong and getting RC'd?
This one is easily fixed yet hasn't been which means we are probably still going to see slack technique causing reds.
It's not 'right' but it also undermines the argument against a 20 minute red in that years of full reds hasn't changed coaches so why not keep some shape to the game?The big change I would like to see is punishment for foul play that results in a player having to exit the game. Basically if you injure a player through an illegal act (that was deemed illegal for safety reasons) then you must leave the field as well. Whether it is a straight swap out, YC then swap or RC and swap probably depends on severity.
As example I point to the illegal clean on Sam Cane (side entry and lower limb targeting ). If that had actually been picked up by the officials should the offending player get to continue to play?do we really think that particular example is a case of a coached technique or more likely a player trying to clear someone out...failing because the player (hooper) hes trying to clearout is stronger...hell, just a better player....then getting frustrated and doing someone monumentally stupid
I do agree that would have been a clear cut example of an old school red, dont come back deal
for me it highlights where we've got too by bundling complete accidents in with deliberate foul play. that deliberate act gets treated almost identically to two players both watching the ball in the air colliding...the ref just makes a subjective decision on which one was more likely to catch it first
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@Crazy-Horse said in Red Cards:
@MajorRage said in Red Cards:
North are just scared of litigation. Everything is always about money.
Bit tin foil hat this.
Really? I would have thought fear of litigation was a major player.
In the WR talk and press releases about these measures there is a lot of strongly worded reference to player wellbeing that looks/sounds very lawyer-ish and a clear record of "look at what we are doing/can't blame us". All fair enough.
You can't get rugby induced head trauma if you don't play.
Most of these initiatives are aimed squarely at Mammas who've moved on from cowboys
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Unfortunately the issue of cards reared it's ugly head again last night. One thing I wondered about at the time, and it was brought up by the half time panel on Stan, is do we need to reconsider the rule that two yellows equals a red when one of the yellows was a team yellow?
As far as I see it, the spirit of that rule is to further punish a player for foul play who hasn't reigned himself in after the first yellow. Which I think is fair enough.
Do you think the punishment dished out to Matera, the Crusaders and the people watching the game was fair given the circumstances? At worst, Matera was guilty of offside(?), a penalty offence if his team wasn't on a warning, and a shoulder to the head that didn't look as though it was done with intent (like QT's card). Not disputing the legitimacy of either of Matera's yellows, I am questioning whether the red card last night fitted the crime.
I am hoping that responses aren't influenced by the team affected. I am are long time hater of cards and I reckon I would be feeling the same way if the Chiefs were the team on the receiving end.
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The ‘team’ yellow point is valid
Matera isn’t a great example though because the second offence probably should’ve been a red anyway
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The ‘team’ yellow point is valid
Matera isn’t a great example though because the second offence probably should’ve been a red anyway
And he shouldn't have even been on the field the last couple of weeks after what can only be described as a shocking miscarraige of justice prior.
