Super Rugby missing the Saffas?
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@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Adding to that that this is after the Bakkes Botha day's.
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Even if the SA sides weren't that successful, they plyaed in a mre confrontational NH style game, not all teams or always, but it exposed our players to differing rugby - which is good. That's what is missing. The fact they inisted on having the games in the arvo, means I watched bugger all. If they played at least a good percentage early evening, then it would have been at lot wasier to watch here.
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@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
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@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship Last season we struggled big time case in point.
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@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
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@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
It would certainly help the players to learn how to deal with it.
Play Australia and NZ teams then hit SA,France,Ireland,England etc
Big jump in game management needed to win those games.No doubt the Coaching staff are shit but so is SR right now, its becoming a weak comp with shit defense that helps us produce AB's ahh I don't think so.
Its producing soft players who are not able to bash it out for 80 min in tight games.
SA teams at least give us a physical contest which is a bit different, we learn't how to wear them down and find weakness in that type of game, not now we don't have that chance. -
@duluth said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
Win Percentage of SA sides v NZ sides 2016-2020
Side % v NZ in NZ % v NZ outside NZ % v NZ overall Sharks 27.3% 66.7% 41.2% Lions 22.2% 45.5% 35% Jaguares 37.5% 22.2% 29.4% Stormers 0% 50% 29.4% Bulls 0% 22.2% 12.5% End of thread.
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@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
It would certainly help the players to learn how to deal with it.
Play Australia and NZ teams then hit SA,France,Ireland,England etc
Big jump in game management needed to win those games.No doubt the Coaching staff are shit but so is SR right now, its becoming a weak comp with shit defense that helps us produce AB's ahh I don't think so.
Its producing soft players who are not able to bash it out for 80 min in tight games.
SA teams at least give us a physical contest which is a bit different, we learn't how to wear them down and find weakness in that type of game, not now we don't have that chance.You mean like how we did last year?
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@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
It would certainly help the players to learn how to deal with it.
Play Australia and NZ teams then hit SA,France,Ireland,England etc
Big jump in game management needed to win those games.No doubt the Coaching staff are shit but so is SR right now, its becoming a weak comp with shit defense that helps us produce AB's ahh I don't think so.
Its producing soft players who are not able to bash it out for 80 min in tight games.
SA teams at least give us a physical contest which is a bit different, we learn't how to wear them down and find weakness in that type of game, not now we don't have that chance.You mean like how we did last year?
Well that is the point we didn't, due to lack of exposure to playing them lately.
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@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
It would certainly help the players to learn how to deal with it.
Play Australia and NZ teams then hit SA,France,Ireland,England etc
Big jump in game management needed to win those games.No doubt the Coaching staff are shit but so is SR right now, its becoming a weak comp with shit defense that helps us produce AB's ahh I don't think so.
Its producing soft players who are not able to bash it out for 80 min in tight games.
SA teams at least give us a physical contest which is a bit different, we learn't how to wear them down and find weakness in that type of game, not now we don't have that chance.You mean like how we did last year?
Well that is the point we didn't, due to lack of exposure to playing them lately.
Ummm, we got beaten by an injury time penalty and then beat them on the return.
I'd hardly say that is evidence that we cant play against their style. -
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
It would certainly help the players to learn how to deal with it.
Play Australia and NZ teams then hit SA,France,Ireland,England etc
Big jump in game management needed to win those games.No doubt the Coaching staff are shit but so is SR right now, its becoming a weak comp with shit defense that helps us produce AB's ahh I don't think so.
Its producing soft players who are not able to bash it out for 80 min in tight games.
SA teams at least give us a physical contest which is a bit different, we learn't how to wear them down and find weakness in that type of game, not now we don't have that chance.You mean like how we did last year?
Well that is the point we didn't, due to lack of exposure to playing them lately.
Ummm, we got beaten by an injury time penalty and then beat them on the return.
I'd hardly say that is evidence that we cant play against their style.We were lucky to win,I think they did a bit better than us at the last WC.I never said we can't play against their style just with less exposure we are losing our ability to adjust to a certain way teams play.Last year shows that not only SA.
If you are happy to keep playing NZ and Australia teams, and think that is the way to produce better players who can adapt to different styles of play good for you (short sighted maybe)I believe it is a weakness.
A weakness we will see again this season. -
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
It would certainly help the players to learn how to deal with it.
Play Australia and NZ teams then hit SA,France,Ireland,England etc
Big jump in game management needed to win those games.No doubt the Coaching staff are shit but so is SR right now, its becoming a weak comp with shit defense that helps us produce AB's ahh I don't think so.
Its producing soft players who are not able to bash it out for 80 min in tight games.
SA teams at least give us a physical contest which is a bit different, we learn't how to wear them down and find weakness in that type of game, not now we don't have that chance.You mean like how we did last year?
Well that is the point we didn't, due to lack of exposure to playing them lately.
Ummm, we got beaten by an injury time penalty and then beat them on the return.
I'd hardly say that is evidence that we cant play against their style.We were lucky to win,I think they did a bit better than us at the last WC.I never said we can't play against their style just with less exposure we are losing our ability to adjust to a certain way teams play.Last year shows that not only SA.
If you are happy to keep playing NZ and Australia teams, and think that is the way to produce better players who can adapt to different styles of play good for you (short sighted maybe)I believe it is a weakness.
A weakness we will see again this season.We can't play everyone all the time so sometimes we will be under-experienced against certain styles. Same happens (or used to happen in reverse).
Things and styles go in cycles. I'd prefer that we worried more about being the best we can than how other teams play.
It was skills and speed of thought that let us down last year -
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
It would certainly help the players to learn how to deal with it.
Play Australia and NZ teams then hit SA,France,Ireland,England etc
Big jump in game management needed to win those games.No doubt the Coaching staff are shit but so is SR right now, its becoming a weak comp with shit defense that helps us produce AB's ahh I don't think so.
Its producing soft players who are not able to bash it out for 80 min in tight games.
SA teams at least give us a physical contest which is a bit different, we learn't how to wear them down and find weakness in that type of game, not now we don't have that chance.You mean like how we did last year?
Well that is the point we didn't, due to lack of exposure to playing them lately.
Ummm, we got beaten by an injury time penalty and then beat them on the return.
I'd hardly say that is evidence that we cant play against their style.We were lucky to win,I think they did a bit better than us at the last WC.I never said we can't play against their style just with less exposure we are losing our ability to adjust to a certain way teams play.Last year shows that not only SA.
If you are happy to keep playing NZ and Australia teams, and think that is the way to produce better players who can adapt to different styles of play good for you (short sighted maybe)I believe it is a weakness.
A weakness we will see again this season.We can't play everyone all the time so sometimes we will be under-experienced against certain styles. Same happens (or used to happen in reverse).
Things and styles go in cycles. I'd prefer that we worried more about being the best we can than how other teams play.
It was skills and speed of thought that let us down last yearA bit more than that.
Coaching,
Selections.
Game plan.
All a mess. -
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
It would certainly help the players to learn how to deal with it.
Play Australia and NZ teams then hit SA,France,Ireland,England etc
Big jump in game management needed to win those games.No doubt the Coaching staff are shit but so is SR right now, its becoming a weak comp with shit defense that helps us produce AB's ahh I don't think so.
Its producing soft players who are not able to bash it out for 80 min in tight games.
SA teams at least give us a physical contest which is a bit different, we learn't how to wear them down and find weakness in that type of game, not now we don't have that chance.You mean like how we did last year?
Well that is the point we didn't, due to lack of exposure to playing them lately.
Ummm, we got beaten by an injury time penalty and then beat them on the return.
I'd hardly say that is evidence that we cant play against their style.We were lucky to win,I think they did a bit better than us at the last WC.I never said we can't play against their style just with less exposure we are losing our ability to adjust to a certain way teams play.Last year shows that not only SA.
If you are happy to keep playing NZ and Australia teams, and think that is the way to produce better players who can adapt to different styles of play good for you (short sighted maybe)I believe it is a weakness.
A weakness we will see again this season.We can't play everyone all the time so sometimes we will be under-experienced against certain styles. Same happens (or used to happen in reverse).
Things and styles go in cycles. I'd prefer that we worried more about being the best we can than how other teams play.
It was skills and speed of thought that let us down last yearA bit more than that.
Coaching,
Selections.
Game plan.
All a mess.Shifting your argument around now.
I’m simply debating your assertion that we aren’t able to foot it with SA now because we don’t play their super sides.The evidence last year was that we can foot it with them. We just can’t beat them comfortably and that has been the case since before the comp changed.
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@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@crucial said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
@chris said in Super Rugby 2022:
@steven-harris said in Blues vs Moana Pasifika 2022:
@chris the question i am asking myself at the minute , given what we saw with the All Blacks last yeat , has our forward play in all the NZ super teams dropped dramaticly since the South African teams have left super rugby …?.
It well be masking over the quality we are seeingI am inclined to think our forward play has dropped off since SA teams are no longer in the comp.
They gave a point of difference in SR,Australia play similar to us so it’s same all the time.
Our SR teams don’t have the big hard SA packs to play against anymore.Are they big though? I recall looking at pack weights and seeing South Africans were no bigger and sometimes smaller than their opposition.
Yep as usually the LF's were Hugh compared to ours and they had heaps of locks over 2.00 m which we struggle with.
I can remember so big 130 kg plus props.That was probably to their detriment as we ran around the big packs ,that is how we beat them regularly.
You only have to think back to the Bulls pack with Bakkes Botha etc big pack.
This article below sums it up
[link text](link url)https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/119724374/super-rugby-blues-forwards-challenged-to-measure-up-against-daunting-bulls-pack
Compare the heights and weights of the two packs. It rather proves my point. That the South African forwards played a more direct style isn't surprising - they didn't have the same skill levels.
Exactly but it is closer to NH rugby than what we have now.As a learning tool for our Forwards we miss the SA teams.
instead the game we play now, it doesn't get the AB's prepared for NH sides that is showing up more and more.
You revert back to how you play most of your Rugby when under pressure.So we struggle under tight intense pressure with very strong D lines.
The defense is getting worse and worse in SR this season its worse than ever,Defend like that in Test Rugby and you are toast.
We will not win a WC in France playing a SR type game we will be suffocated.As soon as we hit SA in the Rugby championship we struggled big time case in point.
I reject the implication that playing South African SR sides would have us better prepared to win a RWC in France. The problem isn't the cattle in NZ, it's the game plan hasn't evolved and the current coaching staff aren't the best. Playing the Bulls wouldn't change the defensive structure employed within the All Blacks.
It would certainly help the players to learn how to deal with it.
Play Australia and NZ teams then hit SA,France,Ireland,England etc
Big jump in game management needed to win those games.No doubt the Coaching staff are shit but so is SR right now, its becoming a weak comp with shit defense that helps us produce AB's ahh I don't think so.
Its producing soft players who are not able to bash it out for 80 min in tight games.
SA teams at least give us a physical contest which is a bit different, we learn't how to wear them down and find weakness in that type of game, not now we don't have that chance.You mean like how we did last year?
Well that is the point we didn't, due to lack of exposure to playing them lately.
Ummm, we got beaten by an injury time penalty and then beat them on the return.
I'd hardly say that is evidence that we cant play against their style.We were lucky to win,I think they did a bit better than us at the last WC.I never said we can't play against their style just with less exposure we are losing our ability to adjust to a certain way teams play.Last year shows that not only SA.
If you are happy to keep playing NZ and Australia teams, and think that is the way to produce better players who can adapt to different styles of play good for you (short sighted maybe)I believe it is a weakness.
A weakness we will see again this season.We can't play everyone all the time so sometimes we will be under-experienced against certain styles. Same happens (or used to happen in reverse).
Things and styles go in cycles. I'd prefer that we worried more about being the best we can than how other teams play.
It was skills and speed of thought that let us down last yearA bit more than that.
Coaching,
Selections.
Game plan.
All a mess.Shifting your argument around now.
I’m simply debating your assertion that we aren’t able to foot it with SA now because we don’t play their super sides.The evidence last year was that we can foot it with them. We just can’t beat them comfortably and that has been the case since before the comp changed.
Nope.I never said " we aren’t able to foot it with SA now because we don’t play their super sides."
Show me where I said that.I said Super Rugby does not have a point of difference anymore,
SA gives that point of difference,Simple as that. -
I'm sure not missing having to get up at night to watch the NZ franchises play in SA.
I miss my Sunday morning rugby - watching the games in Argentina - more. I loved the 10.40am kick-off times on my lazy Sunday.
Not convinced that non-exposure to SA rugby at SR level has a huge impact on AB performance. There were only a few competitive games against SA sides each season. The stats posted by @Duluth give a good indication, I think.
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SA sides are weaker than a few years back. They have lost dozens of their best players to NH clubs (mainly English and French). Now they have a lot of black players who are physically less impressive than the Africaans (of Dutch descent) and who are playing a different style of rugby, far less confrontational. I miss the old tours of the past, when NZ teams had to face hostile crowds and patriotic referees. It certainly gave them a proper training to international fixtures.
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@stargazer said in Super Rugby missing the Saffas?:
Not convinced that non-exposure to SA rugby at SR level has a huge impact on AB performance. There were only a few competitive games against SA sides each season. The stats posted by @Duluth give a good indication, I think.
The NZ teams often matched up better against Saffa sides because the SA packs were generally slower, less mobile & less fit. They simply couldn't handle the speed of our game. That is probably why our SR teams had (surprisingly) greater success against the SA teams, even compared to the Aussie teams throughout those 25 seasons.
