Black Caps vs Proteas 2022
-
@crazy-horse said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
Surely Boult will come straight back in. Nobody would have picked Henry above Boult if Boult was available so do things really change that much based on one good test from Henry?
Unless of course Boult replaces someone else. But who?
Don't say that too loud. These selectors have left Wags out before.
-
@rotated said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@voodoo said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@nzbloke said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@no-quarter said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
still hard to come to terms with just how good our test side is right now. It really is a golden era and I am savouring every moment of it.
Through the years we have usually had only 2 or 3 world class players in a team, so if they didn't perform we'd really struggle, over the last several years we have built up some really good depth to the point we now have a lot of match winners in our team... bloody great how we have so much variation in our pace bowling, even in a place like India we have blokes that can bowl late swing on their slow low wickets, also with Jamieson's height he's going to be awkward face on any type of pitch.
Depends how you define ‘World Class’….that’s a label I’d only put on two guys in our entire history to be honest, Paddles and KW. Of course we’ve also had quite a few I’d consider excellent players, many of who just played.
I do get what you’re saying though I remember 15 or so years ago when Vettori and McCullum carried the team on their own.
Martin Crowe not World Class? Bro....
Borderline. One of our absolute best for sure but just a notch below those others IMHO. Of his era guys like G Chappell, Border, Richards, Miandad and Gavaskar were legends. Marty fits in with that next tier…..Gooch, Gower, Richardson, Greenidge, Haynes and others who are either ‘great’ or ‘very good’ depending on your personal definition I guess.
Those are some fucken good players so no disgrace being part of that group…..but Paddles and KW are just that next level again.
The only thing that stopped him having an even better record was injury
Probably a fair call. He also had a poor start which didn’t help.
But to sum him up IMHO. Kiwi great ? Yes. Would walk into any squad in the word in his era ? Also yes. A certainty for a BCs all time XI ? You got it.
Deadset all time legend by world standards ? Not quite.
His case for all time legend status is complicated by injuries and playing for a country that didn't play test cricket on the biggest stage very often. His natural batting peak also coincided with Paddles retirement and some of our worst teams ever.
That said I'm inclined to give him all time great status simply because he does seem revered by his contemporaries and is constantly referenced as being one of the toughest batsman bowlers faced in that era. This is but one such example.
It is very difficult to put anyone from his era aside from Viv Richards conclusively above him as a batsman unless you give a lot of weight to things he never would have been able to do like play the number of tests Border did or have an epic 5 test series in England where he filled his boots.
Only have to listen to Akram to realize what a great batsman Crowe was... also reckon he's the most stylish batsman I've seen, he even looked very elegant when just defending, shame his career was cut short through knee problems, that was a amazing 100 he scored near the end of his career in England while hobbling around with that leg brace on.
-
@crucial said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@nzbloke said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@nzbloke said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@no-quarter said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
still hard to come to terms with just how good our test side is right now. It really is a golden era and I am savouring every moment of it.
Through the years we have usually had only 2 or 3 world class players in a team, so if they didn't perform we'd really struggle, over the last several years we have built up some really good depth to the point we now have a lot of match winners in our team... bloody great how we have so much variation in our pace bowling, even in a place like India we have blokes that can bowl late swing on their slow low wickets, also with Jamieson's height he's going to be awkward face on any type of pitch.
Depends how you define ‘World Class’….that’s a label I’d only put on two guys in our entire history to be honest, Paddles and KW. Of course we’ve also had quite a few I’d consider excellent players, many of who just played.
I do get what you’re saying though I remember 15 or so years ago when Vettori and McCullum carried the team on their own.
You'd definitely have to include Martin Crowe, him & Hadlee carried the team for years.
Lots of players have carried the NZ cricket team. Doesn't make them all World Class, just a class above their team mates.
Yep we’re just lucky the team we’ve had in the last five or so years is full of them…..but only one is an all timer by world standards and unfortunately his elbow is fucked.
-
@nzbloke said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@rotated said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@voodoo said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@nzbloke said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@no-quarter said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
still hard to come to terms with just how good our test side is right now. It really is a golden era and I am savouring every moment of it.
Through the years we have usually had only 2 or 3 world class players in a team, so if they didn't perform we'd really struggle, over the last several years we have built up some really good depth to the point we now have a lot of match winners in our team... bloody great how we have so much variation in our pace bowling, even in a place like India we have blokes that can bowl late swing on their slow low wickets, also with Jamieson's height he's going to be awkward face on any type of pitch.
Depends how you define ‘World Class’….that’s a label I’d only put on two guys in our entire history to be honest, Paddles and KW. Of course we’ve also had quite a few I’d consider excellent players, many of who just played.
I do get what you’re saying though I remember 15 or so years ago when Vettori and McCullum carried the team on their own.
Martin Crowe not World Class? Bro....
Borderline. One of our absolute best for sure but just a notch below those others IMHO. Of his era guys like G Chappell, Border, Richards, Miandad and Gavaskar were legends. Marty fits in with that next tier…..Gooch, Gower, Richardson, Greenidge, Haynes and others who are either ‘great’ or ‘very good’ depending on your personal definition I guess.
Those are some fucken good players so no disgrace being part of that group…..but Paddles and KW are just that next level again.
The only thing that stopped him having an even better record was injury
Probably a fair call. He also had a poor start which didn’t help.
But to sum him up IMHO. Kiwi great ? Yes. Would walk into any squad in the word in his era ? Also yes. A certainty for a BCs all time XI ? You got it.
Deadset all time legend by world standards ? Not quite.
His case for all time legend status is complicated by injuries and playing for a country that didn't play test cricket on the biggest stage very often. His natural batting peak also coincided with Paddles retirement and some of our worst teams ever.
That said I'm inclined to give him all time great status simply because he does seem revered by his contemporaries and is constantly referenced as being one of the toughest batsman bowlers faced in that era. This is but one such example.
It is very difficult to put anyone from his era aside from Viv Richards conclusively above him as a batsman unless you give a lot of weight to things he never would have been able to do like play the number of tests Border did or have an epic 5 test series in England where he filled his boots.
Only have to listen to Akram to realize what a great batsman Crowe was... also reckon he's the most stylish batsman I've seen, he even looked very elegant when just defending, shame his career was cut short through knee problems, that was a amazing 100 he scored near the end of his career in England while hobbling around with that leg brace on.
Yes Crowe was a great batsmen,If you talk to test players here in Australia they still mention Crowe as world class.If he wasn't injured he would have increased his runs, average and 100s by a fair bit.
He scored 180 here at the Gabba fantastic innings against a very good Australian attack. -
@chris said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
Only have to listen to Akram to realize what a great batsman Crowe was... also reckon he's the most stylish batsman I've seen, he even looked very elegant when just defending, shame his career was cut short through knee problems, that was a amazing 100 he scored near the end of his career in England while hobbling around with that leg brace on.
Yes Crowe was a great batsmen,If you talk to test players here in Australia they still mention Crowe as world class.If he wasn't injured he would have increased his runs, average and 100s by a fair bit.
Agree that Martin Crowe is the most stylish batsman I have seen . ever, in whole world. Technically perfect, yet not a bore (say, like Dravid), and elegant.
Shame about the start and tail of his career numbers obscuring slightly what a great player he was, or should have been.
-
@chris said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@nzbloke said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@rotated said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@voodoo said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@nzbloke said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@no-quarter said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
still hard to come to terms with just how good our test side is right now. It really is a golden era and I am savouring every moment of it.
Through the years we have usually had only 2 or 3 world class players in a team, so if they didn't perform we'd really struggle, over the last several years we have built up some really good depth to the point we now have a lot of match winners in our team... bloody great how we have so much variation in our pace bowling, even in a place like India we have blokes that can bowl late swing on their slow low wickets, also with Jamieson's height he's going to be awkward face on any type of pitch.
Depends how you define ‘World Class’….that’s a label I’d only put on two guys in our entire history to be honest, Paddles and KW. Of course we’ve also had quite a few I’d consider excellent players, many of who just played.
I do get what you’re saying though I remember 15 or so years ago when Vettori and McCullum carried the team on their own.
Martin Crowe not World Class? Bro....
Borderline. One of our absolute best for sure but just a notch below those others IMHO. Of his era guys like G Chappell, Border, Richards, Miandad and Gavaskar were legends. Marty fits in with that next tier…..Gooch, Gower, Richardson, Greenidge, Haynes and others who are either ‘great’ or ‘very good’ depending on your personal definition I guess.
Those are some fucken good players so no disgrace being part of that group…..but Paddles and KW are just that next level again.
The only thing that stopped him having an even better record was injury
Probably a fair call. He also had a poor start which didn’t help.
But to sum him up IMHO. Kiwi great ? Yes. Would walk into any squad in the word in his era ? Also yes. A certainty for a BCs all time XI ? You got it.
Deadset all time legend by world standards ? Not quite.
His case for all time legend status is complicated by injuries and playing for a country that didn't play test cricket on the biggest stage very often. His natural batting peak also coincided with Paddles retirement and some of our worst teams ever.
That said I'm inclined to give him all time great status simply because he does seem revered by his contemporaries and is constantly referenced as being one of the toughest batsman bowlers faced in that era. This is but one such example.
It is very difficult to put anyone from his era aside from Viv Richards conclusively above him as a batsman unless you give a lot of weight to things he never would have been able to do like play the number of tests Border did or have an epic 5 test series in England where he filled his boots.
Only have to listen to Akram to realize what a great batsman Crowe was... also reckon he's the most stylish batsman I've seen, he even looked very elegant when just defending, shame his career was cut short through knee problems, that was a amazing 100 he scored near the end of his career in England while hobbling around with that leg brace on.
Yes Crowe was a great batsmen,If you talk to test players here in Australia they still mention Crowe as world class.If he wasn't injured he would have increased his runs, average and 100s by a fair bit.
He scored 180 here at the Gabba fantastic innings against a very good Australian attack.You can't get any higher praise than from former international players he competed against, yeah, was a real shame he wasn't able to play longer... I remember that superb innings of his over the ditch at the Gabba very well.
-
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
Only have to listen to Akram to realize what a great batsman Crowe was... also reckon he's the most stylish batsman I've seen, he even looked very elegant when just defending, shame his career was cut short through knee problems, that was a amazing 100 he scored near the end of his career in England while hobbling around with that leg brace on.
Yes Crowe was a great batsmen,If you talk to test players here in Australia they still mention Crowe as world class.If he wasn't injured he would have increased his runs, average and 100s by a fair bit.
Agree that Martin Crowe is the most stylish batsman I have seen . ever, in whole world. Technically perfect, yet not a bore (say, like Dravid), and elegant.
Shame about the start and tail of his career numbers obscuring slightly what a great player he was, or should have been.
Funny you should mention him.
While unpacking after moving house I found a book on 100 greatest test cricketers published in 2006, basically its one bloke splitting players into a first XI, a second XI and so on ( choccie fish to whoever guesses the identity of the only kiwi to make it
) a really awesome book to have on the coffee table and look through.At that stage Dravid had played 100 odd tests with an average of 57. He finished with an average of “only” 52…..safe to say he faded as he went on, same with Ponting who did the same to an even greater extent ( 58 to 51 ). Even Tendulkar finished on 53.
Is there a chance the same could happen to our Kane ? Particularly if the elbow problems persist ?
-
Re: Boult. He is the encumbent - and that shouldn't be threatened by taking paternity leave and being demoted. That isn't the culture of that team anyway, so I have little fear of this happening.
If, they all want to have a mature discussion and decide mutually that it is best to keep Henry going for this next match, then great. But it is back to encumbancy for the next test come June in England.
Henry has been MOTM in his last 2 tests, this has been a veeeeeeeery important thing to happen that Henry gets some success in his proper position BEFORE The Great Retirement wave about to hit.
Rather like the planned and expected retirement of Taylor has been accompanied by the unplanned and unexpected absence of Williamson. I get the feeling the planned and expected retirement of Wagner will be accompanied by an earlier than expected retirement of Boult.
So, would be good to pump Henry's tyres for a consecutive test at his home ground. But then let's get back to getting as much out of Boult while he is still around.
Then there is a non-WTC test against Ireland in July for the next opportunity for some test bowling rotation. If it happens. Although I'm sure both those boards would crawl over 100m of broken glass to cancel a test match if they could.
-
Oh God they're going to do something insane like drop Wags and select Henry as the 3rd seamer aren't they
-
@no-quarter said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
Oh God they're going to do something insane like drop Wags and select Henry as the 3rd seamer aren't they
I hope not. Wags is underappreciated by management
-
@no-quarter said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
Oh God they're going to do something insane like drop Wags and select Henry as the 3rd seamer aren't they
That is a distinct possibility with these selectors.. now that would be protest worthy lol
-
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
Re: Boult. He is the encumbent - and that shouldn't be threatened by taking paternity leave and being demoted. That isn't the culture of that team anyway, so I have little fear of this happening.
Henry made the very most of his opportunity in the 1st test so would have to be really unlucky not to start in the 2nd one, very surprised how well he batted, but if you perform really well in your main role you gain a heap of confidence in all the other areas of your game too... for me all depends on the weather between the test who would start, if it's fine leading up to the test I'd go with Boult, if we get a fair bit of rain leading up to it like we did in the 1st Test I'd go with Henry.
-
If Jamieson was going to the IPL I'd rest him because he has looked knackered at times this summer. But he isn't.
If all are fit and firing it's between Southee and Henry. Southee seems to have turned to corner somewhat after that horror run between India and Bangladesh so I'd be hesitant to drop him.
Henry rides the pine.
-
@rotated said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
If Jamieson was going to the IPL I'd rest him because he has looked knackered at times this summer. But he isn't.
If all are fit and firing it's between Southee and Henry. Southee seems to have turned to corner somewhat after that horror run between India and Bangladesh so I'd be hesitant to drop him.
Henry rides the pine.
It's a testament to our current strength that the selectors could bench a guy who took 9 wickets in the match for less than 100 runs and no one would find that unreasonable.
-
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
Only have to listen to Akram to realize what a great batsman Crowe was... also reckon he's the most stylish batsman I've seen, he even looked very elegant when just defending, shame his career was cut short through knee problems, that was a amazing 100 he scored near the end of his career in England while hobbling around with that leg brace on.
Yes Crowe was a great batsmen,If you talk to test players here in Australia they still mention Crowe as world class.If he wasn't injured he would have increased his runs, average and 100s by a fair bit.
Agree that Martin Crowe is the most stylish batsman I have seen . ever, in whole world. Technically perfect, yet not a bore (say, like Dravid), and elegant.
Shame about the start and tail of his career numbers obscuring slightly what a great player he was, or should have been.
Funny you should mention him.
While unpacking after moving house I found a book on 100 greatest test cricketers published in 2006, basically its one bloke splitting players into a first XI, a second XI and so on ( choccie fish to whoever guesses the identity of the only kiwi to make it
) a really awesome book to have on the coffee table and look through.At that stage Dravid had played 100 odd tests with an average of 57. He finished with an average of “only” 52…..safe to say he faded as he went on, same with Ponting who did the same to an even greater extent ( 58 to 51 ). Even Tendulkar finished on 53.
Is there a chance the same could happen to our Kane ? Particularly if the elbow problems persist ?
The advent of DRS at the end of their careers accounts for a lot of those dips. Batsmen had to completely recalibrate how to play left arm bowling and anything around the wicket.
That cohort started their career with hometown umpiring and no DRS and ended with neutral umpires and DRS which is a huge change.
It's hard to see a similar change possible in the next decade unless NZ went back to preparing green tops.
-
@canefan said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@rotated said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
If Jamieson was going to the IPL I'd rest him because he has looked knackered at times this summer. But he isn't.
If all are fit and firing it's between Southee and Henry. Southee seems to have turned to corner somewhat after that horror run between India and Bangladesh so I'd be hesitant to drop him.
Henry rides the pine.
It's a testament to our current strength that the selectors could bench a guy who took 9 wickets in the match for less than 100 runs and no one would find that unreasonable.
cough cough, Scott Boland.
Great performance - but really better than Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc? Same with Henry - great figures on home ground, but at test level a bit behind Southee/Boult.
Great problem to have, and I'm stoked for one of the unluckiest bowlers I've seen. Kinda like QB who have receivers who drop; it goes on your stats, but it ain't your fault
-
-
@machpants said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
So, just a quick question. That was the 3rd biggest test win for NZ, where does that rate in worst loses for SA?
Second worst
-
@hooroo said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
@machpants said in Black Caps vs Proteas 2022:
So, just a quick question. That was the 3rd biggest test win for NZ, where does that rate in worst loses for SA?
Second worst
Even sweeter!
