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@paekakboyz I was somewhat bemused hearing the Greens pro-choice re gender or binary or whatever, yet they have sat back quietly with the Vaccine mandates...good to be able to pick and choose when you should give people a choice I guess.
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@taniwharugby I guess their position is that one is innate (ie born that way... or not!) and the other is a different type of autonomy question about your body and what you can be 'made' to do to it. But it gets murky pretty quickly aye.
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@godder That’s based on a false premise, i.e. that there if there is an obligation to legislate it is to define what a trans athlete is so that they can compete. It ignores that there is another legislation option. You can legislate to protect natal women’s sport and trans athletes become just another class who are shut out, along with us uncos and geriatrics.
It’s perfectly possible to legislate on the basis the you need to provide the best outcome for the greatest number of people, which at the end of the day is what underpins the concept of democracy.
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Didn’t know where to put this
Please move / delete as appropriate
First gender neutral music awards, Brits 2022
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@mikethesnow I'm not sure if the female-fronted bit is trolling or a woosh 😁
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and in completely co-incidental news ... As awards shows move woke ... audiences are plummeting.
I didn't know even know it was on. Or, honestly, care.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/04/and-the-loser-is-are-music-awards-shows-in-crisis
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@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@godder That’s based on a false premise, i.e. that there if there is an obligation to legislate it is to define what a trans athlete is so that they can compete. It ignores that there is another legislation option. You can legislate to protect natal women’s sport and trans athletes become just another class who are shut out, along with us uncos and geriatrics.
It’s perfectly possible to legislate on the basis the you need to provide the best outcome for the greatest number of people, which at the end of the day is what underpins the concept of democracy.
Under NZ law, we've already done that - transmen are men and transwomen are women (particularly if their legal ID says that) and the onus is on the sport (or whatever activity) to show why that doesn't apply.
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@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@godder Ah well, we reap what we sow I guess.
A legal paper on the subject and related matters.
This is from Auckland University slightly before the most recent law change on gender ID, although it probably doesn't affect the paper much. It gives some food for thought for sports, particularly at the competitive/elite level.
Not really covered in there, but something I would say from an administrative standpoint as someone who has been involved in national selection for international competitions and sports administration generally, if someone turns up with ID with their gender/sex on it, it's very difficult to make a case that they aren't the gender/sex on the ID.
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@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@godder So in a nutshell, the people who said this legislation was the thin end of the wedge were right?
Hard to tell, it's pretty recent stuff, and while there will no doubt be some bad faith actors who deserve all the opprobrium they get, my sense of the submissions (written and oral) on the legislation and other material on the subject was that the vast majority of the people using this type of process are using it for genuine reasons that don't impact anyone else.
In terms of impact on sport, there aren't that many trans people (3% is a high estimate in NZ) and Sport NZ research shows their participation rates are lower than for the general population. It's already an issue that girls who turn 12 (or whatever age the sport has for gendered competition) sometimes can't play their sport any more because there is no local girls team or competition due to lack of numbers, mandating separate transmen and transwomen sections/competitions would have the effect of banning gendered sports for much of that population because it is so small. Quite hard to promote sport as the great place of cameraderie and team spirit etc when it comes with a caveat of "except for transpeople."
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I've said before the solution is remarkably simple:
Have an open division (men's) and protected divisions (women, disabled).
If you are female but awesome, then you can try to play sport at the highest level you can in the open division.
If you aren't female (i.e trans-woman) then you can try to play sport at the highest level you can in the open division.
If you were female but undergoing testosterone supplementation (i.e. trans-man), then you can try to play sport at the highest level you can in the open division.
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@godder said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@godder So in a nutshell, the people who said this legislation was the thin end of the wedge were right?
Hard to tell, it's pretty recent stuff, and while there will no doubt be some bad faith actors who deserve all the opprobrium they get, my sense of the submissions (written and oral) on the legislation and other material on the subject was that the vast majority of the people using this type of process are using it for genuine reasons that don't impact anyone else.
In terms of impact on sport, there aren't that many trans people (3% is a high estimate in NZ) and Sport NZ research shows their participation rates are lower than for the general population. It's already an issue that girls who turn 12 (or whatever age the sport has for gendered competition) sometimes can't play their sport any more because there is no local girls team or competition due to lack of numbers, mandating separate transmen and transwomen sections/competitions would have the effect of banning gendered sports for much of that population because it is so small. Quite hard to promote sport as the great place of cameraderie and team spirit etc when it comes with a caveat of "except for transpeople."
Nobody is saying that. What we are saying is we want woman's sport protected. That used to be a non-controversial opinion.
Is it worth throwing away decades of progress made in woman's sport for a tiny minority?
@antipodean has the perfect solution, if participation is the actual issue.
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@godder said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@godder So in a nutshell, the people who said this legislation was the thin end of the wedge were right?
Hard to tell, it's pretty recent stuff, and while there will no doubt be some bad faith actors who deserve all the opprobrium they get, my sense of the submissions (written and oral) on the legislation and other material on the subject was that the vast majority of the people using this type of process are using it for genuine reasons that don't impact anyone else.
In terms of impact on sport, there aren't that many trans people (3% is a high estimate in NZ) and Sport NZ research shows their participation rates are lower than for the general population. It's already an issue that girls who turn 12 (or whatever age the sport has for gendered competition) sometimes can't play their sport any more because there is no local girls team or competition due to lack of numbers,
Isn’t it possible that admitting transwomen could make that bad situation worse?Is it possible that any girl who is uneasy about their presence would opt not to make a scene and risk social ostracism and just drop out of sport? Has any independent research been done on the relative increase in trans participation vs a potential reduction in girls’ participation, or is even the suggestion that it is possible in itself transphobic?
mandating separate transmen and transwomen sections/competitions would have the effect of banning gendered sports for much of that population because it is so small. Quite hard to promote sport as the great place of cameraderie and team spirit etc when it comes with a caveat of "except for transpeople.
That may be true. But every action has a price. I just wonder if that price has been fully and honestly assessed in this case. Does a cis 12 year old’s mental and physical health matter?
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Would be lovely if it could happen but most sports with gendered divisions are gendered by international rules, so open competitions can't be sanctioned by the local bodies unless their international body allows for it. NZRU aren't going down this pathway unless the IRB go there. Likewise for FIFA etc. Seems remarkably unlikely to happen in any of our lifetimes.
Also says to transwomen that as far as sports are concerned, they are not women.
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@godder said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Going to suggest we split the non-sport Trans debate out of the sports talk stuff.
Because I think there are different issues at play.
And if I sober up any time soon I shall do it. If any if you other mods see an opportunity and have the time ...
It's all related and leads to the completely absurd situations like males competing in female sports. We've got to stop shoving this absolute garbage down kids throats.
Kids don't usually care, and for under 12s, sports are generally not able to be separated by gender anyway (by law - S49 of the Human Rights Act) so it doesn't really come up (and legally can't). I don't want to get into the legal niceties around additional gendered events as a means of encouraging participation, but the general reasons behind that legal restriction is that gender/sex don't have a serious impact on sports for under 12s (there will no doubt be examples to the contrary, but that's where the line was drawn as a balance between inclusivity and safety).
For all the hypotheticals, can anyone point to a NZ-specific example of high school sports where it ever actually happened and the trans girl was the new clear best? Usually the complaints are that girls can't play in the boys competition which means they can't play at all since there is no girls competition, but maybe there are some examples somewhere of trans girls ruining competitions.
There are also trans boys and men overseas who have to compete in women's divisions etc because of these types of laws, which doesn't seem to work out that well either.
Also, what's Parliament's interest in legislating this? From their perspective, in terms of sports legislation currently active, the main thing they care about is participation in physically active sports and recreation which goes back to the benefits like cost savings to the health system from lifelong physical activity. If it was purely about things like competition and results, the legislation and funding priorities would be different. With that in mind, why would or should Parliament get involved?
Not quite what you asked, but my daughter does competitive athletics, and at last years NSW state qualifiers a trans kid took one of the qualifying spots off an 11yr girl. Seemed a bit stink to me
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@godder said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Would be lovely if it could happen but most sports with gendered divisions are gendered by international rules, so open competitions can't be sanctioned by the local bodies unless their international body allows for it. NZRU aren't going down this pathway unless the IRB go there. Likewise for FIFA etc. Seems remarkably unlikely to happen in any of our lifetimes.
Also says to transwomen that as far as sports are concerned, they are not women.
Biological differences between the sexes is a thing.
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@godder said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Would be lovely if it could happen but most sports with gendered divisions are gendered by international rules, so open competitions can't be sanctioned by the local bodies unless their international body allows for it. NZRU aren't going down this pathway unless the IRB go there. Likewise for FIFA etc. Seems remarkably unlikely to happen in any of our lifetimes.
Also says to transwomen that as far as sports are concerned, they are not women.
Well they're not.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general