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@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby It's bound to be a line of enquiry they pursue given his own comments on its importance in his life and some of the people he / his church have been linked with.
I get that a person's religion should be there own business but there remains the suspicion that it will colour his position on all manner of issues.
He's getting a very easy ride from the media compared to how he would be treated if he had been called a muslim fundamentalist.
It's a fair question to ask and he is laying his criteria down.
Pretty fair to say that on conscience votes eg abortion/euthanasia etc he will be voting a very conservative line and that's fine if his constituents are fully aware that he will use their mandate that way.
The times I would question it is shown in the example of him voting against the 'protection zones from protestors' around abortion clinics. You wonder how much an anti-abortion stance is influencing the vote in the name of 'rights of free speech'
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@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby It's bound to be a line of enquiry they pursue given his own comments on its importance in his life and some of the people he / his church have been linked with.
I get that a person's religion should be there own business but there remains the suspicion that it will colour his position on all manner of issues.
He's getting a very easy ride from the media compared to how he would be treated if he had been called a muslim fundamentalist.
It's a fair question to ask and he is laying his criteria down.
Pretty fair to say that on conscience votes eg abortion/euthanasia etc he will be voting a very conservative line and that's fine if his constituents are fully aware that he will use their mandate that way.
The times I would question it is shown in the example of him voting against the 'protection zones from protestors' around abortion clinics. You wonder how much an anti-abortion stance is influencing the vote in the name of 'rights of free speech'
Isn't that what we want? People to clearly articulate their beliefs/values and we vote accordingly? He's made it clear that he understands that he represents his constituent's beliefs as well.
Have we gotten so used to politicans lying and hiding what they really think that is is somehow controversial?
I'm not religious at all, but people have the right to their beliefs. If he was a muslim they simply wouldn't be pursuing this line of questioning.
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@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial said in NZ Politics:
@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
@taniwharugby It's bound to be a line of enquiry they pursue given his own comments on its importance in his life and some of the people he / his church have been linked with.
I get that a person's religion should be there own business but there remains the suspicion that it will colour his position on all manner of issues.
He's getting a very easy ride from the media compared to how he would be treated if he had been called a muslim fundamentalist.
It's a fair question to ask and he is laying his criteria down.
Pretty fair to say that on conscience votes eg abortion/euthanasia etc he will be voting a very conservative line and that's fine if his constituents are fully aware that he will use their mandate that way.
The times I would question it is shown in the example of him voting against the 'protection zones from protestors' around abortion clinics. You wonder how much an anti-abortion stance is influencing the vote in the name of 'rights of free speech'
Isn't that what we want? People to clearly articulate their beliefs/values and we vote accordingly? He's made it clear that he understands that he represents his constituent's beliefs as well.
Have we gotten so used to politicans lying and hiding what they really think that is is somehow controversial?
I'm not religious at all, but people have the right to their beliefs. If he was a muslim they simply wouldn't be pursuing this line of questioning.
I'm not sure why you continually think I am arguing against something when I have already said 'that it is fine'.
My second point doesn't mean that I think he is lying or hiding or that he isn't allowed his beliefs, just that questions will obviously be asked in these cases.
If he wants to be the leader of a party purporting to do the best by middle NZ then he needs to be sure that he is representing that group by and large or he will get questions about it.
I was agreeing with @dogmeat
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@crucial I was referring to both you and dogmeat thinking it's a fine line of questioning. With all that's going on in NZ it was the first question FFS.
He's clearly stated now and in the past he has his personal beliefs (like he's alone in that) and he's not ignoring the beliefs/wants of people that vote for him.
I'm hopeful that his stated focus on delivering results will finally hold Labour's feet to the fire on their abysmal handling of a variety of policies. They have been getting away with murder.
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So where was the questioning of Ibrahim Omer on his religious beliefs? I’m as atheist as it’s possible to be but it really pisses me off that there is a double standard in the treatment of people with religious beliefs. Grill them all or leave them all alone. Until then, it isn’t a valid line of questioning.
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@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial I was referring to both you and dogmeat thinking it's a fine line of questioning. With all that's going on in NZ it was the first question FFS.
He's clearly stated now and in the past he has his personal beliefs (like he's alone in that) and he's not ignoring the beliefs/wants of people that vote for him.
I'm hopeful that his stated focus on delivering results will finally hold Labour's feet to the fire on their abysmal handling of a variety of policies. They have been getting away with murder.
You've got two entirely different points there and no one has argued against either.
It's the first line of questioning because he has to state his credentials. Nothing unusual there. He was probably really happy to get it out of the way.
As I personally struggle to understand how someone of intelligence can believe a religion in an evangelical manner I reserve the right to hold reservations on him leading the country though. I'd hardly find anyone that I'd unreservedly support (they're politicians after all)
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@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial I was referring to both you and dogmeat thinking it's a fine line of questioning. With all that's going on in NZ it was the first question FFS.
He's clearly stated now and in the past he has his personal beliefs (like he's alone in that) and he's not ignoring the beliefs/wants of people that vote for him.
I'm hopeful that his stated focus on delivering results will finally hold Labour's feet to the fire on their abysmal handling of a variety of policies. They have been getting away with murder.
Is the questioning of a politician' religious beliefs (as it might affect how he thinks/votes) seen as reasonable in NZ?
Would that same line of questioning have been directed by the media at a politician of say, deep Muslim or Hindu faith?
Genuine questions.
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@victor-meldrew said in NZ Politics:
@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@crucial I was referring to both you and dogmeat thinking it's a fine line of questioning. With all that's going on in NZ it was the first question FFS.
He's clearly stated now and in the past he has his personal beliefs (like he's alone in that) and he's not ignoring the beliefs/wants of people that vote for him.
I'm hopeful that his stated focus on delivering results will finally hold Labour's feet to the fire on their abysmal handling of a variety of policies. They have been getting away with murder.
Is the questioning of a politician' religious beliefs (as it might affect how he thinks/votes) seen as reasonable in NZ?
Would that same line of questioning have been directed by the media at a politician of say, deep Muslim or Hindu faith?
Genuine questions.
I don't think it's reasonable if he isn't the only MP in NZ practicing a religion but he is the only one being asked. But the media are predominantly left leaning and will look for any chinks in his armour
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@victor-meldrew National or Labour wouldn't put up a hard-line muslim as leader, for precisely that reason: people's perception that their religious beliefs affect how they vote/think would rule them out of that role, so it would be a bit odd to cry victimisation of the christian in that comparison.
I think devout people are all stupid, so I'm sure as shit not voting for any sort of fundamentalist muslim, nor an evangelical christian - so i figure the free ride for Labour continues. -
Thanks. I wasn't commenting, more interested in how the media in NZ approached this topic and if there were "acceptable" or "unacceptable" religions/religious views which could or would be challenged.
It's pretty much a no-no in the UK to go into a politician's religious beliefs or question if it might impact their political actions and just wanted to see if NZ media were different.
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@victor-meldrew said in NZ Politics:
Thanks. I wasn't commenting, more interested in how the media in NZ approached this topic and if there were "acceptable" or "unacceptable" religions/religious views which could or would be challenged.
It's pretty much a no-no in the UK to go into a politician's religious beliefs or question if it might impact their political actions and just wanted to see if NZ media were different.
Yeah, some people would shy away from that line of questioning I guess. But then minorities in NZ get minor positions where basically nobody cares too much, and I don't think a muslim back bencher would get much more or less grief than Luxon previously.
Get the top gig and you're going to get all aspects looked at much more closely though, so it is pretty hard to draw comparisons because the minor religions ain't getting close to the top job.
Personally I say grill all of them on their beliefs, because I think it would be pretty absurd to think that people's beliefs don't influence what they are going to say and do - and for an easy example, the oppression of women is one of several religions favourite things, and fuck that shit. -
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
Get the top gig and you're going to get all aspects looked at much more closely though, so it is pretty hard to draw comparisons because the minor religions ain't getting close to the top job.
Thanks. Living in the UK the questions to Luxton surprised me. I guess it might be down to Catholics/Jews being prohibited from public life until 150-ish years ago in the UK and religion becoming a no-no in politics after that point and hat never happening in NZ.
Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, etc, are in or near the top jobs in the UK and it's just accepted so any questioning on religion is on a personal/background basis and def. not political.
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@ploughboy said in NZ Politics:
they have moved on from religion today and on to the fact he owns 7 houses
Financial genius. That's a plus.
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@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@victor-meldrew said in NZ Politics:
Thanks. I wasn't commenting, more interested in how the media in NZ approached this topic and if there were "acceptable" or "unacceptable" religions/religious views which could or would be challenged.
It's pretty much a no-no in the UK to go into a politician's religious beliefs or question if it might impact their political actions and just wanted to see if NZ media were different.
Yeah, some people would shy away from that line of questioning I guess. But then minorities in NZ get minor positions where basically nobody cares too much, and I don't think a muslim back bencher would get much more or less grief than Luxon previously.
Well we know the answer to that because there is Muslim backbench MP and the press has been uniformly soft and effusive. Nobody asked him about his views on euthanasia or abortion, let alone homosexuality.
Get the top gig and you're going to get all aspects looked at much more closely though, so it is pretty hard to draw comparisons because the minor religions ain't getting close to the top job.
Personally I say grill all of them on their beliefs, because I think it would be pretty absurd to think that people's beliefs don't influence what they are going to say and do - and for an easy example, the oppression of women is one of several religions favourite things, and fuck that shit.One question I'd like to ask the critics is this: Given Abortion and Euthanasia are now irrevocably legal, exactly what Christian beliefs do they think Luxon would use his position to legislate on? Or is it simply that he would have voted against those things and that's unacceptable? If it's the latter that would be interesting because Cabinet Ministers Nanaia Mahuta and Damien O'Connor voted AGAINST the Abortion Legislation Act 2020. Cabinet Ministers Michael Wood, Poto Williams, David Clark, Damien O'Connor and Ministers Phil Twyford and Meka Whaitiri all voted AGAINST the End of Life Choice Act 2019. There are obviously factors other than Christianity that influence why people vote the way they do. But out of all those reasons, voting that way because you are a Christian is apparently an unacceptable one.
I suspect it's because Labour MPs who vote their conscience are doing so out of principle, while National ones who do the same are evil.
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@booboo said in NZ Politics:
@ploughboy said in NZ Politics:
they have moved on from religion today and on to the fact he owns 7 houses
Financial genius. That's a plus.
reeked of politics of envy to me. He's successful; he's run a massive airline and been senior in major businesses. The fact that house prices have exploded in the last few years isn't his fault.
Tall poppies. Same with Key; there seems to be a media presumption that wealthy people are inherently evil
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@nzzp said in NZ Politics:
@booboo said in NZ Politics:
@ploughboy said in NZ Politics:
they have moved on from religion today and on to the fact he owns 7 houses
Financial genius. That's a plus.
reeked of politics of envy to me. He's successful; he's run a massive airline and been senior in major businesses. The fact that house prices have exploded in the last few years isn't his fault.
Tall poppies. Same with Key; there seems to be a media presumption that wealthy people are inherently evil
There also seems to be this weird left wing belief going on that landlords are evil, which is related to this topic.
If we wan competent or even successful people to be attracted to poltics, they will be competent and, well, successful. In CL's case, he wants to focus on education, upskill the people and get people paid more so they have more choices.
And, well look at that, he knows how to to achieve that personally!
Better experience than working in politics all your life.
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on Luxon and wealth, I kinda understand it because I had the same belief growing up as a lefty. I think it's actually (funnily enough) rooted in some weird Christian puritanism.
When I started working it took a mate to really challenge me on my presumption that wealthy people weren't inherently good people. There is a shedload of charity that goes on from wealthy people too; Bob Jones being critiqued recently by Ricardo Menendez March about being anti-immigration, and him then disclosing the ongoing charity to immigrants he has been doing for years. Wealthy folk often provide massive support to charities and the arts/culture scenes, often on the quiet.
Anyway, it's life in NZ. We're in a weird place where we've broken the social contract with people to work hard and get ahead, and now we're left with a growing group that society has failed. You can call it inequality, but I don't think it's actually the top end that's the problem, it's the bottom that needs to be supported and lifted out of tough tough lives. There is a real issue with working poor in this country, who work damn hard and still struggle to make ends meet.
Our national productivity is a disgrace; we've been going backwards for years and 'brute forcing' the economy with more hours and immigration is not solving the problem.
Now we're in a low infrastructure, high cost of living, about to be high interest rate economy, where normal people can't afford housing, inflation is going nuts, and people are busting guts to just stay afloat. I don't like it, and it's the fault of successive governments to put us in this situation. I don't have an easy solution, but I am deeply concerned for our communities.
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@taniwharugby I read that. Horseshit isn't it? No matter how good Dr Reti is, if he can't win the next election then none of his other talents matter, and the assessment of his peers is that he doesn't do the politics very well.
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