World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules
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Overall I think this is a great move leading into a RWC in less than 2 years. There will always be unintended consequences, of course. That's just the way the broad brush works.
Is it going to stop the venality of certain PI Union Admins? Fuck no. It might make it worse if their nations start seeing success and get better financial rewards.
Players aren't going to move back to the Islands to play there for 3 years, so residency is not a valid argument here. As others have stated: once the grandparent rule expires this probably isn't going to be much of a concern - it might have a decade or two to run yet, but eventually the demographics simply don't end up surviving.
This was going to happen anyway, so I think the situation needs to keep evolving. Not like birth rates are suddenly exploding in the PIs anyway.
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@nta Why's it going to stop in a couple of decades? I get that there will be great-grandchildren who will not be eligible, but isn't there still migration from the PIs to NZ & Aus?
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@catogrande said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@gibbon-rib said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@catogrande why do you think they'll be harmful longer term?
Because I think it opens the door for more to chance their arm with a Tier 1 nation knowing that there is always a way back. This will likely be where there is already a dual eligibility as 2 stand down periods might be a bit too long.
The law of unforeseen circumstances.
I've been saying that endlessly. Nice to have my thoughts validated.
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@gt12 said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@kiwiwomble said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@taniwharugby this could be very good for him, having options and something to really aim for...we might see him really break out for chiefs next year
If he declares for Samoa, he should have to move to Moana Pasifika the following year. He does have that option available to him but I think I'd stick around until the last minute, as he could declare for Samoa two days before the WC and they'd select him.
I understand the Samoan and Tongan RUs weren't too happy with MP signing Lincoln McClutchie, because he's not PI eligible. I got the impression from the media around it that his signing was in the end accepted as it was seen a something short-term.
I wouldn't be surprised if we'll see Ioane in the MP jersey from 2023, if he decides to play for Samoa (for example, if he doesn't make the ABs in 2022) and McClutchie (maybe) getting a contract with a NZ franchise.
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@gibbon-rib said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@nta Why's it going to stop in a couple of decades? I get that there will be great-grandchildren who will not be eligible, but isn't there still migration from the PIs to NZ & Aus?
I can't back this up with stats (haven't looked them up), but my guess is that the migration stream from the Islands to NZ/Oz has changed into a trickle?
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@stargazer said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@gibbon-rib said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@nta Why's it going to stop in a couple of decades? I get that there will be great-grandchildren who will not be eligible, but isn't there still migration from the PIs to NZ & Aus?
I can't back this up with stats (haven't looked them up), but my guess is that the migration stream from the Islands to NZ/Oz has changed into a trickle?
Yeah, it's a bit of a fallacy, tbh.
You can see in this graph. That there is a fairly constant flow of migration from Samoa.
There are now 50k Samoan born NZers, where as in 1991 (conveniently a census year and the year of Samoa's first RWC aappearance) there were 43k Samoan born NZers.The difference is the 144k NZ born Samoans as opposed to 85k in 1991.
There will continue to be many many more NZ Samoans no longer eligible for Samoa, but there will also still be a fairly constant supply who are.
There is a Samoa immigration quota of 1100 per year. Doesn't sound much - but that is 0.6% of the Samoan on-island population.
On average 2,218 Samoans gained permanent residency in New Zealand each year over the period 2013 to 2018. 1,058 migrated on average each year from Samoa to New Zealand under the Samoa Quota, a lottery system which allows about 1,100 Samoans every year to migrate to New Zealand if they can find a job. Another 1,109 moved under a family visa, and a much smaller number, 50, did so under a skilled or business visa.
The NZ pathway: how and why Samoans migrate to Australia – part one - Devpolicy Blog from the Development Policy Centre
After Fiji, Samoa is the biggest source of Pacific migrants to Australia. Stephen Howes and Sherman Surandiran show that 96% of all Samoan migrants to Australia come via New Zealand.
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@stargazer said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@gibbon-rib said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@nta Why's it going to stop in a couple of decades? I get that there will be great-grandchildren who will not be eligible, but isn't there still migration from the PIs to NZ & Aus?
I can't back this up with stats (haven't looked them up), but my guess is that the migration stream from the Islands to NZ/Oz has changed into a trickle?
I was more looking at falling birth rates in the PIs as a factor, not necessarily immigration plunging.
My point was more general in nature, but I didn't explain it:
Once the system is tested, we're going to see clubs, nations, and unions take a much closer look at how it works in practice. When that happens, we're going to see less people willing to engage in the discussion of picking a player to try them out.
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@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
so, be born in NZ, learn your rugby in NZ, become a good player on our IP and systems. Make the ABs. Get paid well. Use your new profile to jag a fat overseas contract. Take up said contract, knowing full well you can't play for the ABs any more
Have a bit of a whinge, play for another team at the next World Cup.
Have cake. Also eat.
This doesn't "grow the game" this pretty much just means the same guys play at World Cups but in different jerseys. Maybe Samoa and Tonga (who this is aimed at) make a quarter here or there. Big whoop.
Great for Charlie Paitau, who now gts to play at the World Cup AND keep his fat UK contract. Bad for the Tongan bloke who will probably qualify them for the tournament, but lose his RWC spot to Charlie.
Yeah nah.
This is more targeted at players that might get plucked into say an AB team, get dumped after 1 game and are then in the international wilderness and are playing 2nd div in France.
If we want a stronger international schedule then we need these guys playing.
The Piutau's are rare. -
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
so, be born in NZ, learn your rugby in NZ, become a good player on our IP and systems. Make the ABs. Get paid well. Use your new profile to jag a fat overseas contract. Take up said contract, knowing full well you can't play for the ABs any more
Have a bit of a whinge, play for another team at the next World Cup.
Have cake. Also eat.
This doesn't "grow the game" this pretty much just means the same guys play at World Cups but in different jerseys. Maybe Samoa and Tonga (who this is aimed at) make a quarter here or there. Big whoop.
Great for Charlie Paitau, who now gts to play at the World Cup AND keep his fat UK contract. Bad for the Tongan bloke who will probably qualify them for the tournament, but lose his RWC spot to Charlie.
Yeah nah.
This is more targeted at players that might get plucked into say an AB team, get dumped after 1 game and are then in the international wilderness and are playing 2nd div in France.
If we want a stronger international schedule then we need these guys playing.
The Piutau's are rare.Bollocks it is targeted at that sort of theoretical player.
A 1 test All Black in the French 2nd Div would be the rare example. You might get a 1 cap Samoan in French 2nd Div swap to Cook Islands.
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@rapido said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
so, be born in NZ, learn your rugby in NZ, become a good player on our IP and systems. Make the ABs. Get paid well. Use your new profile to jag a fat overseas contract. Take up said contract, knowing full well you can't play for the ABs any more
Have a bit of a whinge, play for another team at the next World Cup.
Have cake. Also eat.
This doesn't "grow the game" this pretty much just means the same guys play at World Cups but in different jerseys. Maybe Samoa and Tonga (who this is aimed at) make a quarter here or there. Big whoop.
Great for Charlie Paitau, who now gts to play at the World Cup AND keep his fat UK contract. Bad for the Tongan bloke who will probably qualify them for the tournament, but lose his RWC spot to Charlie.
Yeah nah.
This is more targeted at players that might get plucked into say an AB team, get dumped after 1 game and are then in the international wilderness and are playing 2nd div in France.
If we want a stronger international schedule then we need these guys playing.
The Piutau's are rare.Bollocks it is targeted at that sort of theoretical player.
A 1 test All Black in the French 2nd Div would be the rare example. You might get a 1 cap Samoan in French 2nd Div swap to Cook Islands.
Francis Saili (1)? Frank Halai (1)? Seta Tamanivalu (3)?
All examples of discards not really in the top levels but maybe valuable to other countries.Fekitoa (23) has already started his switch through Sevens.
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@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@rapido said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
so, be born in NZ, learn your rugby in NZ, become a good player on our IP and systems. Make the ABs. Get paid well. Use your new profile to jag a fat overseas contract. Take up said contract, knowing full well you can't play for the ABs any more
Have a bit of a whinge, play for another team at the next World Cup.
Have cake. Also eat.
This doesn't "grow the game" this pretty much just means the same guys play at World Cups but in different jerseys. Maybe Samoa and Tonga (who this is aimed at) make a quarter here or there. Big whoop.
Great for Charlie Paitau, who now gts to play at the World Cup AND keep his fat UK contract. Bad for the Tongan bloke who will probably qualify them for the tournament, but lose his RWC spot to Charlie.
Yeah nah.
This is more targeted at players that might get plucked into say an AB team, get dumped after 1 game and are then in the international wilderness and are playing 2nd div in France.
If we want a stronger international schedule then we need these guys playing.
The Piutau's are rare.Bollocks it is targeted at that sort of theoretical player.
A 1 test All Black in the French 2nd Div would be the rare example. You might get a 1 cap Samoan in French 2nd Div swap to Cook Islands.
Francis Saili (1)? Frank Halai (1)? Seta Tamanivalu (3)?
All examples of discards not really in the top levels but maybe valuable to other countries.Fekitoa (23) has already started his switch through Sevens.
It's not targeted at them though. It's not targeted at anyone specifically.
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@rapido said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@rapido said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
so, be born in NZ, learn your rugby in NZ, become a good player on our IP and systems. Make the ABs. Get paid well. Use your new profile to jag a fat overseas contract. Take up said contract, knowing full well you can't play for the ABs any more
Have a bit of a whinge, play for another team at the next World Cup.
Have cake. Also eat.
This doesn't "grow the game" this pretty much just means the same guys play at World Cups but in different jerseys. Maybe Samoa and Tonga (who this is aimed at) make a quarter here or there. Big whoop.
Great for Charlie Paitau, who now gts to play at the World Cup AND keep his fat UK contract. Bad for the Tongan bloke who will probably qualify them for the tournament, but lose his RWC spot to Charlie.
Yeah nah.
This is more targeted at players that might get plucked into say an AB team, get dumped after 1 game and are then in the international wilderness and are playing 2nd div in France.
If we want a stronger international schedule then we need these guys playing.
The Piutau's are rare.Bollocks it is targeted at that sort of theoretical player.
A 1 test All Black in the French 2nd Div would be the rare example. You might get a 1 cap Samoan in French 2nd Div swap to Cook Islands.
Francis Saili (1)? Frank Halai (1)? Seta Tamanivalu (3)?
All examples of discards not really in the top levels but maybe valuable to other countries.Fekitoa (23) has already started his switch through Sevens.
It's not targeted at them though. It's not targeted at anyone specifically.
I had said that it's more targeted at those types than at the Piutau's that get to benefit all along the chain and I do believe that it was one of the main driving arguments put forward that players of reasonable quality that have lost eligibility through a handful of appearances or Sevens aren't lost to the international game.
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@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crazy-horse said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
I think stretching it out to a grandparent is too far.
In western terms I generally agree (as in 'my granny was born in Scotland and moved to NZ as a child), but in the PI diaspora I think it is fair enough. The country ties are very strong.
Taking Paul Williams as an example it's not obvious to me why it would be a travesty for him to be ineligible Samoa as a second nation if had already decided to be capped for NZ. Sure there may be a link, but even a parental link is pushing it in many circumstances.
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@rotated said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crazy-horse said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
I think stretching it out to a grandparent is too far.
In western terms I generally agree (as in 'my granny was born in Scotland and moved to NZ as a child), but in the PI diaspora I think it is fair enough. The country ties are very strong.
Taking Paul Williams as an example it's not obvious to me why it would be a travesty for him to be ineligible Samoa as a second nation if had already decided to be capped for NZ. Sure there may be a link, but even a parental link is pushing it in many circumstances.
Each circumstance is different quite obviously and although citizenship isn't part of this rule (but is for Olympics), for many places it may well be a travesty that someone can be a citizen (through grandparents) yet not be able to represent that country because they were selected for another some time back.
I don't understand the opposition to this if it creates better teams and therefore better games to watch.
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@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
so, be born in NZ, learn your rugby in NZ, become a good player on our IP and systems. Make the ABs. Get paid well. Use your new profile to jag a fat overseas contract. Take up said contract, knowing full well you can't play for the ABs any more
Have a bit of a whinge, play for another team at the next World Cup.
Have cake. Also eat.
This doesn't "grow the game" this pretty much just means the same guys play at World Cups but in different jerseys. Maybe Samoa and Tonga (who this is aimed at) make a quarter here or there. Big whoop.
Great for Charlie Paitau, who now gts to play at the World Cup AND keep his fat UK contract. Bad for the Tongan bloke who will probably qualify them for the tournament, but lose his RWC spot to Charlie.
Yeah nah.
This is more targeted at players that might get plucked into say an AB team, get dumped after 1 game and are then in the international wilderness and are playing 2nd div in France.
If we want a stronger international schedule then we need these guys playing.
The Piutau's are rare.I have a bridge to sell you
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@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@rotated said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crazy-horse said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
I think stretching it out to a grandparent is too far.
In western terms I generally agree (as in 'my granny was born in Scotland and moved to NZ as a child), but in the PI diaspora I think it is fair enough. The country ties are very strong.
Taking Paul Williams as an example it's not obvious to me why it would be a travesty for him to be ineligible Samoa as a second nation if had already decided to be capped for NZ. Sure there may be a link, but even a parental link is pushing it in many circumstances.
Each circumstance is different quite obviously and although citizenship isn't part of this rule (but is for Olympics), for many places it may well be a travesty that someone can be a citizen (through grandparents) yet not be able to represent that country because they were selected for another some time back.
I don't understand the opposition to this if it creates better teams and therefore better games to watch.
I agree Crucial, although there maybe a few cases where it doesn't settle well, in the long run I think it very positive.
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@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
so, be born in NZ, learn your rugby in NZ, become a good player on our IP and systems. Make the ABs. Get paid well. Use your new profile to jag a fat overseas contract. Take up said contract, knowing full well you can't play for the ABs any more
Have a bit of a whinge, play for another team at the next World Cup.
Have cake. Also eat.
This doesn't "grow the game" this pretty much just means the same guys play at World Cups but in different jerseys. Maybe Samoa and Tonga (who this is aimed at) make a quarter here or there. Big whoop.
Great for Charlie Paitau, who now gts to play at the World Cup AND keep his fat UK contract. Bad for the Tongan bloke who will probably qualify them for the tournament, but lose his RWC spot to Charlie.
Yeah nah.
This is more targeted at players that might get plucked into say an AB team, get dumped after 1 game and are then in the international wilderness and are playing 2nd div in France.
If we want a stronger international schedule then we need these guys playing.
The Piutau's are rare.I have a bridge to sell you
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@nta said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
so, be born in NZ, learn your rugby in NZ, become a good player on our IP and systems. Make the ABs. Get paid well. Use your new profile to jag a fat overseas contract. Take up said contract, knowing full well you can't play for the ABs any more
Have a bit of a whinge, play for another team at the next World Cup.
Have cake. Also eat.
This doesn't "grow the game" this pretty much just means the same guys play at World Cups but in different jerseys. Maybe Samoa and Tonga (who this is aimed at) make a quarter here or there. Big whoop.
Great for Charlie Paitau, who now gts to play at the World Cup AND keep his fat UK contract. Bad for the Tongan bloke who will probably qualify them for the tournament, but lose his RWC spot to Charlie.
Yeah nah.
This is more targeted at players that might get plucked into say an AB team, get dumped after 1 game and are then in the international wilderness and are playing 2nd div in France.
If we want a stronger international schedule then we need these guys playing.
The Piutau's are rare.I have a bridge to sell you
not sure what award category this falls into to but its a winner
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@dan54 said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@rotated said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crucial said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
@crazy-horse said in World Rugby Change Eligibigilty Rules:
I think stretching it out to a grandparent is too far.
In western terms I generally agree (as in 'my granny was born in Scotland and moved to NZ as a child), but in the PI diaspora I think it is fair enough. The country ties are very strong.
Taking Paul Williams as an example it's not obvious to me why it would be a travesty for him to be ineligible Samoa as a second nation if had already decided to be capped for NZ. Sure there may be a link, but even a parental link is pushing it in many circumstances.
Each circumstance is different quite obviously and although citizenship isn't part of this rule (but is for Olympics), for many places it may well be a travesty that someone can be a citizen (through grandparents) yet not be able to represent that country because they were selected for another some time back.
I don't understand the opposition to this if it creates better teams and therefore better games to watch.
I agree Crucial, although there maybe a few cases where it doesn't settle well, in the long run I think it very positive.
If you eliminate the grandparent rule on the second union only you eliminate 95% of the cases that are taking the piss and still keep most of the benefit.
